Busoni Catalog Prefix

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Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:24 am

This is a proposal to change the prefix used for the Busoni catalog numbers from "KiV" to "BV".
The argument for making the change is as follows:
* Roberge, Marc-André (1991). ''Ferruccio Busoni: A Bio-Bibliography''. New York: Greenwood Press.
* Couling, Della (2005). ''Ferruccio Busoni: A Musical Ishmael''. Lanham, Maryland: Scarecrow Press.
These two references both use the prefix "BV" for Busoni-Verzeichnis catalog numbers. (The well-known books on Busoni's music by Beaumont (1985) and Sitsky (1986; 2nd ed. 2008) do not use Kindermann's catalog numbers, so they don't seem relevant to this question.) Kindermann (1980) did not specify which letters should be used for referring to his catalog. Roberge, in a note on p. xxviii, states "Kindermann, in a letter dated 20 January 1981, agreed to my use of the [BV] abbreviations."

I am unaware of any musicological references that use "KiV". (Perhaps someone else knows of some.) I have only seen the KiV prefix used on some web sites, including Amazon.com and IMSLP, and occasionally recordings. I don't know how or where the the "KiV" prefix originated. The proliferation of prefixes being used for the Busoni catalog numbers is probably unfortunate. (I have also seen "K" and "Kind.", and Breitkopf has recently been adding the numbers to new editions with the prefix "Busoni-Verzeichnis".)

Are there any reasons for not making the change? Thanks for feedback!
Robert
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Carolus » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:11 am

I think this is a good idea. One question: Should we then drop the opus numbers, since they were used on only selected pieces? I think it's best to employ only one cataloging system, if at all possible. Vivaldi's works are a real snarl in that regard with Ryom, Fanna, Pincherle and the opus numbers issued in the composer's lifetime.
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:33 pm

That would certainly simplify things, but many recordings, most scores, the reference books by Sitsky and Beaumont, and manuscripts use the opus numbers and do not mention the Kindermann catalog numbers. It's hard to imagine not including "Op. 39" on the Piano Concerto (sometimes also written "Op. XXXIX", people seem to love this). It's really become a permanent part of the name. I'd recommend keeping both. (Unfortunately, life is often a bit messy...)
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Lyle Neff » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:46 pm

Remember that there is the field on the work-creation page that asks for catalog number. Assuming that that field is searchable, any extra information can be included there.
"A libretto, a libretto, my kingdom for a libretto!" -- Cesar Cui (letter to Stasov, Feb. 20, 1877)
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:19 pm

I was thinking perhaps we could include the op. number in one of the title fields, esp. if it appears on the score, but omit it from the "Opus/Catalogue Number" field and just use the BV catalog numbers there.
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Konrad Stein » Thu May 07, 2009 3:05 pm

Concerning the catalog prefix question I would like to point out some aspects:
- the use of prefixes in the authoritative reference works: The New Grove 2th editions use "K" = Kindermann (for Scarlatti they use "K" = Kirkpatrick), MGG (Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart) has no reference to Kindermann (probably Riethmüller, how wrote the article, fell rivalry), neither has Brockhaus-Riemann. Harenberg Klaviermusikführer (very popular in Europe) uses "Kind.", The Bielefelder Katalog, one of the largest dicography, use "K".
- the use of "KiV" versus "BV" in the internet are under 5000 matches with Google (looking for "Busoni" plus abbreviation) - not so very much.
- the term "Busoni-Verzeichnis" is somehow a misuse of german language (suggests, Busoni is the author of this Verzeichnis or he is the subject of it - but in fact its about his work; correct would be Busoni-Werke-Verzeichnis, BWV, an already token term).
- historically (see [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werkverzeichnis] the Verzeichnis usually is named after the author (also BWV starts as "Schmieder-Verzeichnis") as a honour to whom who did the painfully work. Just a few of the large Verzeichnisse are named after the composer. An other aspect is, that there are to many composer joining the B (Bach, Bartok, Beethoven, Bizet, Boccherini, Brahms, Buxtehude, Busoni). On the other hand there are also several Indexer with K (Kindermann (KiV), Kirkpatrick (K), Köchel (KV).

All this is very much confusing. I prefer "KiV" for the reasons:
- often used, especially on CD and writings on Busoni.
- most close to the standard works.
- historical correct and a clear pointer to Kindermann.
It´s just an opinion.
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Thu May 07, 2009 10:58 pm

I agree that "KiV" has great appeal, especially because it is unique, honors Kindermann's groundbreaking work, and follows the tradition of naming the catalog after the first author. But if we were to change the lists on the Wikipedia from "BV" to "KiV" we would need to cite an authoritative reference. I don't know of any. You mentioned that many writings on Busoni use "KiV". Are these published? Are there any references we could cite? Thanks for your input.
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby pml » Fri May 08, 2009 2:02 am

There are a variety of possibilities beyond the two mentioned above as alternatives. It seems the two unorthodox prefixes have been created solely with a view to avoid confusion with the abbreviations of other composers' worklists, a particularly vital concern in the case of both JS Bach and WA Mozart, of whose works Busoni made many wonderful arrangements!

Thus KiV (Kindermann-Verzeichnis) rather than the well-known KV (Köchel-Verzeichnis), and likewise BV (Busoni-werke-Verzeichnis) rather than BWV ([JS] Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis). I would pragmatically suggest a better abbreviation than BV would be BusWV, which then distinguishes it from the Bach works catalogue in a similar manner as is done for Diderik Buxtehude whose worklist is most often given as BuxWV. As in the case of Buxtehude, there are very few composers indeed sharing the first three letters of Busoni's surname. (Incidentally, if not BuxWV, the alternative might have been something like KaV rather than KV, the cataloguer's name being Georg Karstädt—yet another K!)

Instances such as New Grove using [K] for Kindermann (Busoni) or Kirkpatrick (D. Scarlatti) are often just local variables for the sake of brevity, in the same way that if you look at the Mozart or Bach catalogues there will be frequent abbreviations thrown around, NBA, BG, NMA, AMA, that are usually specific to the article; whether these abbreviations have a “life outside” of being pinned down in a reference book depends on how those designations are being used in the real world.

Is there a Ferruccio Busoni Society? One imagines they would have a reasonably strong view on whether KiV, or Kind.-V, or Kind., or BV, or BusWV is their preferred prefix when referring to the works (aside from opus numbers where appropriate, naturally).

Regards, Philip
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Fri May 08, 2009 10:00 pm

pml wrote:Is there a Ferruccio Busoni Society?


There is the "F. Buson Foundation" (http://www.concorsobusoni.it/) which runs the Busoni International Piano Competition. I found a competition announcement PDF on their web site which uses the "BV" prefix (http://www.concorsobusoni.it/en-50-1350.aspx?CMS_IDN=5820), so I it looks like they have opted for ""BV.
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Sat May 09, 2009 3:42 am

Another musicological organization devoted to the study of Busoni, based in his birth city of Empoli, is called "Centro Studi Musicali Ferruccio Busoni". Mission web page is here: http://www.centrobusoni.org/eng/finalita.asp A score search on their web site shows they also use the "BV" prefix for the identification of his scores. Here is the result page of one search: http://www.centrobusoni.org/eng/risric_ ... Arg=3&Txt=
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Konrad Stein » Fri May 15, 2009 1:11 pm

Robert.Allen wrote:I agree that "KiV" has great appeal, especially because it is unique, honors Kindermann's groundbreaking work, and follows the tradition of naming the catalog after the first author. But if we were to change the lists on the Wikipedia from "BV" to "KiV" we would need to cite an authoritative reference. I don't know of any. You mentioned that many writings on Busoni use "KiV". Are these published? Are there any references we could cite? Thanks for your input.

Dear Robert,
somehow I became a victim of my imagination. The use of the Prefix in writings on Busoni is widespread. For Example:
- Riethmüller "FB Poetik" uses "Kindermann-Verzeichnis",
- Reinhard Ermen "FB" (a brief but popular biography) uses "BV",
- Joseph Willimann "Briefwechsel zwischen FB und Volkmar Andreae" uses "KiV".
I give up to look for more examples (if usefull I will continue).
I think, the historical situation is open in this moment and we can feel free to use what seems the best. Just difficult to figure out: what is the best?
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Robert.Allen » Fri May 15, 2009 8:50 pm

Hi Konrad,
It seems both prefixes "BV" and "KiV" are used a lot. Since changing from one to the other on the many web pages at IMSLP ("KiV") or the English Wikipedia ("BV") involves a lot of difficult and error prone editing, and is perhaps not a very fruitful endeavor, I'm beginning to think it's better to just leave things as they are. I think most people can handle the fact that two different labels have been used. Maybe we should just add a note about Kindermann's catalog and the alternative prefixes on the Busoni category page and the IMSLP "List of compositions" page. (It seems the Category page supports multiple languages. I don't know how to handle that. BTW, I recently added a link to the English Wikipedia's "List of compositions" on the IMSLP Busoni Category page.) --Robert
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Re: Busoni Catalog Prefix

Postby Konrad Stein » Sat May 16, 2009 7:36 am

Dear Robert,
Due to the fact, that you are doing such a großartige philological work in WP en and elsewhere and considering the given reasons in this topic I deceided to change the Busoni worklist in ISMLP from KiV to BV. I feel the historical situation tends to this side.
Beside that, how you feel for a little project trying to collect the complete (published) work of Busoni for IMSLP in the long run? Step by step I will do a list for all scores I can reach on the disscussion page. Let´s see, what we can get.
Greeting from yours Konrad
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