UE statement on the ongoing discussion

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Blouis79
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Postby Blouis79 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:34 pm

Richard Black wrote:[[...]

A small point, but 'filtering system' can include manual sorting by a real live person. It is indeed clearly quite impossible to imagine a system that does that automatically, at the present state of the art.


I suspect that the manual system that requires a conscious decision by the user is the legal standard on the internet, especially since most technical measures can be defeated. Further, if an EU citizen border hops to a non-EU country to download under a different regime, is EU Customs going to pick them up when they go home? - only if they declare they have an illegal import!

Corporations presumably have little responsibilty to attempt to prove what is stated by a customer in good faith - eg "I am not in the EU".

pierre.chepelov
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Urtext

Postby pierre.chepelov » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:35 pm

An Urtext edition of a PD work is a new, edited version of that work. In many countries (I'm not sure in Canada) the work of the editor is protected, considering the editor as an author (e.g. with a life+... duration).

The fact that a Urtext edition is a newly engraved score also makes it protected, from publication date (even if there's no named editor). Usually publication+25 years.

I heard that in Germany there's a special law saying that "scientific" editions only have a publication+25 years protection (even with named editors).

nikolas
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Postby nikolas » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:50 pm

I will repeat that I'm not sure about this, but it is of interest, as I've heard otherwise about urtext editions.

Since urtext is an exact copy of the original manuscript actually there has been huge work in copying, but no real editing, nothing added. So I would assume that, while yes I agree editors works are copyrighted as well, if you take a manuscript and just copy it, and not placing a singly legato slur on your copy, then you didn't create nothing new, in which case there is nothing to copyright. You just "photocopied" the work. If on the other hand, you do research, and correct mistakes from the manuscript, etc, or put your own opinion on, then yes of course this is copyrighted.

Blouis79
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Postby Blouis79 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:07 pm

Carolus wrote:(My remark from the previous post)
[...] Joseph Marx (d.1964) is still under copyright in Canada. Any work that was first published before 1923 is public domain in the US (the vast majority of titles listed above).


(Comment)
This is a total of 60 works - 180,000 Euros. The Joesph Marx works at IMSLP were all published before 1923 and were hosted on IMSLP's US server, where those titles are public domain. [...]


I suspect the Marx work could cause difficulty for IMSLP. If the IMSLP controller claims to be operating legally in Canada, then having some works hosted in the US which would be illegal in Canada could be viewed as "conspiring", unless the US-hosted material was only available for download in the US.

The wikipedia article and links explain in more detail the work that goes into an urtext. Not a copy, as the original is usually handwritten and annotated and more than one version may exist. To create a single representation of what the composer intended when the composer is not present to say could be rather tricky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtext_edition

Beyond that there is the problem of interpretation of the musical markings of the time in the French or Italian styles, which is well described by Thurston Dart in his classic "The interpretation of music" (1954). Markings used by the composer are now read differently so that a performer at the time would produce a different performance from a performer of today reading the same symbols.

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Postby Carolus » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:20 pm

Blouis79,

I agree that the Joseph Marx works are problematic. We would have most likely taken them down soon regardless. They could be hosted by a USA version of IMSLP or another similar project located in the USA, where they are clearly public domain. IMSLP's USA server was a source of much technical difficulty also - especially when an new contributor would accidentally upload files to the US server, where they would vanish into a black hole for a time. There were really not a large number of works involved there, and the annoyance factor of dealing with it was slowing down the operation of IMSLP in general.

Richard Black
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Postby Richard Black » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:24 pm

Further, if an EU citizen border hops to a non-EU country to download under a different regime, is EU Customs going to pick them up when they go home?


Of course not, but that's just the old argument that a crime isn't a crime until you're caught.

Odin
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My protest-letter to UE in Vienna

Postby Odin » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:45 am

Hello

I wrote a letter of protest to UE in Vienna and published it here. The comment on that was. They won´t care.

They did ! I got an answer one day later, where they asked for my understanding for their position.

Then I replied with one more letter, clarifying my position in this issue.

Today, I received one more letter, but am quite discontent with this reply. Still they have not learnt their lesson.

Now I wrote the third letter to them.

This time I told them that - if the content of the next reply will not please me - I will publish the whole dialogue here in this place and on several sites of the pirate movement.

So I am really looking forward to their next letter .......

In small steps they are noticing that they stuck right into a hornet´s nest. And there are many hornets in it.

Sincerely

Odin
Odin

Kalli
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Postby Kalli » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:58 am

@Odin

I wrote you an PN!

Odin
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I read it and replied

Postby Odin » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:42 am

Hello Kalli

Kalli wrote:@Odin

I wrote you an PN!


I suppose you read my reply already.

But let me add one thing:

I got one more email from a promoting manager at UE in Vienna very recently. They want to break the dialogue since I announced that I could imagine to publish it on different sites.

You see - they feel in trouble.

In my reply I stressed once again that I was acting as a private person and nothing else.

Regards
Odin

nikolas
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Postby nikolas » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:15 am

Odin,

I'm sorry, but PM = private messaging. it is to remain private. I don't think that blackmailing that you will take a private correspondance out in public is a good move, nor fair. It's no wonder they broke communication. I would've done the absolutely same thing. It violates moral laws.

Vivaldi
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Postby Vivaldi » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:15 am

Hi Odin,
Do you think it is a good idea pushing UE back against a corner? I mean, like a bruised animal, they could bite back with a huge bang if threatened further. I'm just giving an example of some actions they can take, like sue you for defamation or something like that.

Yours,

Vivaldi

Odin
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How fair are they themselves ?

Postby Odin » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:23 am

Hello

nikolas wrote:Odin,

I'm sorry, but PM = private messaging. it is to remain private. I don't think that blackmailing that you will take a private correspondance out in public is a good move, nor fair. It's no wonder they broke communication. I would've done the absolutely same thing. It violates moral laws.


Once again my quotation of the japanese coronel in the old movie:

"This is war. This is not a game of cricket"

Regards
Odin

Kalli
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Postby Kalli » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:25 am

Odin,

you see, that they blame the whole IMSLP for your private opinion. OK, you are allowed to have a private opinion. Nobody will limit this. But you must think about, that you are one user of this forum and the UE could easily think, that you represent the position of all users here. My solution is still the peacefully one. I think, we can speak to the UE in a very calm and intelligent way. Perhaps they will help us to find an adequate solution (if their letter contains their real opininion and they are not planning to destroy the IMSLP).

I think if we are not carefully, this could take enlarge the situation like the case of the record labels against Napstar & Co. And in this case, other projects like IMSLP will close their homepages too.
Last edited by Kalli on Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Odin
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You know what I did

Postby Odin » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:31 am

Hello Kalli

Kalli wrote:Odin,

you see, that they blame the whole IMSLP for your private opinion. OK, you are allowed to have a private opinion. Nobody will limit this. But you must think about, that you are one user of this forum and the UE could easily think, that you represent the position of all users here. My solution is still the peacefully one. I think, we can speak to the UE in a very calm and intelligent way. Perhaps they will help us to find an adequate solution (if their letter contains their real opininion and they are not planning to destroy the IMSLP).


They have no right to blame the IMSLP for my private opinion. I always declare it openly as my private opinion, here and in my private correspondence with them. So if they blame other people for what I am doing they are acting in a criminal way.

So far I see no necessity to publish my correspondence with them here on this site or elsewhere. I made this dependent of their behavior in this case from now on.

But I notice that you do not wish that I publish this correspondence here anyhow, so if I will make the decision to publish I will do that on other sites, not here.

And I now and here give the representative from UE the promise that I will take away his name as a person if I choose to publish.

Sincerely
Odin

Odin
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As long as I speak the truth ....

Postby Odin » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:37 am

Hello

Vivaldi wrote:Hi Odin,
Do you think it is a good idea pushing UE back against a corner? I mean, like a bruised animal, they could bite back with a huge bang if threatened further. I'm just giving an example of some actions they can take, like sue you for defamation or something like that.

Yours,

Vivaldi


I think it is a good idea to make them understand that they started a war and that that was a bad idea. They can possibly win a battle but not the war.

Pushing them into a corner would be a good means to tell them to leave projects like IMSLP alone in the future, and that all the other publishers should do the same.

Defamation would require a lie. If they try to take any steps against me as a private person they know that they will see me in the arms of a pirate party within one day. If that is what they want .... to strengthen their real enemy ....

They should simply learn that the times have changed and that they better should follow and adopt to the new technology.

Regards
Odin


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