UE statement on the ongoing discussion

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Odin
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No - but it is a battle for THEM

Postby Odin » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:18 am

Hello Nikolas

nikolas wrote:
Odin wrote:Don´t yield to UE and to their demands, make them yield to you and to your demands. They started the fight, they must surrender or be defeated.

So this is a battle for you? I'm sorry but you seem hugely more interested in the copyright laws than actually resolving the situation (= reopning IMSLP), which should be the center point here.

Don't turn this situation in a war against UE and copyrights and blah blah. Find other ways to do that, don't use IMSLP. :(

Where are the real facts? The cold facts? I need a responsible entity (NOT from UE, of course) to tell me: "Listen Nikolas, what is copyright free in a country can/can't/whatever and blah blah". I don't care what everybody thinks, and although I have my own opinion, and don't see any reason in current copyright laws indeed and I find them completely outdated (listen Odin? I almost agree with you. ;)) still it doesn't make any difference.


OK I think UE were the ones who started a battle or a war against IMSLP. Their behavior was in its character a hostile attack and an effort - at least partially - to "copyfraud". Their goal was not simply to get some scores removed, they wanted more or less the whole project to disappear. But they would never say that openly.

Of course I want to get the copyright rules changed, but I also want to get IMSLP "back on track" as soon as possible. I think that all people writing here agree on this second issue, but not on the first.

IMSLP ist not the right place for political work against the copyright legislation of today. Listen, Nikolas ? I know that. The right place for it is the pirate movement, which so far has lead to the foundation of severalnew political parties.

But I believed and still believe that the position of IMSLP towards the offender UE might be strengthened by mentioning and referring to the political project of the pirate movement to change this copyright legislation worldwide by using political methods.

I don´t know how and what Mr. Feldmahler thinks, but if I where in his position I would welcome all help I can get for my project and against my offenders, in this case UE.

Let Mr. Feldmahler or some other administrator entitled by him clear out the position which kind of help they don´t want. If you are one of these administrators, please tell me in a calm way.

I am not here to damage IMSLP, in the contrary. When I discovered on monday morning what had happened I cried like many other users. Then I decided to try to take an active part in a fight against the mafia of publishers.

Sincerely
Odin

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Postby nikolas » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:33 am

Odin,

Certainly, and I didn't mean to imply that you are damaging IMSLP in any way, just that the center of attention has been shifted to where it should not be right now (in my very personal opinion of course).

Sadly, I am someone who tends to understand all positions, so I know that this copyright issue, that's been discussed here, is something that should be resolved as soon as possible (and exactly that with the 50 - 70 years and secondary, indeed that my grand grand children don't need MY music to survive! My children maybe for a few years, but that's all! Heck I give all my scores myself right now!) as it does come in conflict with what IMSLP is al about.

And I do know that political help is always helpful, especially from people like you and the pirate party, who if nothing else are not some corpses in the parliament or something (as it very often happens with politicians, in soul, mind or body). :) So cheers for that.

I just felt the need to remind that cars, laws, etc, while very interesting, and crucial, aree a bit 2nd to reopening IMSLP. And IMSLP needs to reopen NOW!

The true problems with IMSLP have almost been withheld, I agree with UE in that.

* money
* people working
* an IP detection system or something simmilar

That's all.

I'm most eager to donate some money (however not time, I'm dead busy with my PhD and the computer games I'm working on) to help the cause of reopening IMSLP. If this would help, that is.

Odin
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Si vis pacem - praepara bellum

Postby Odin » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:09 am

Hello Nikolas

The latin words above mean simply: If you want peace - prepare for war !

It´s an old wisdom: if you prepare for war you will be strong, and your neighbors will know that. Therefore they will probably not start any quarrel with you, and as a reward for your preparation of war you will probably enjoy a life in peace.

For me the main point is not the political project to change the laws.

For me it´s the strategic view:

UE made a choice to offend the IMSLP-project - let be that they used polite methods in the beginning - and that is their choice. We can not do anything about that. IMSLP can not do anything about that:

IMSLP (or the people running the project) can only choose between two alternatives:

1 To yield to UE, may UE be right or wrong

2 To take the fight, whatever the odds

We all want to see IMSLP back on track.

Alternative 1 would be a sign of weakness. I am sure that there is a long queue of publishers behind UE waiting for the outcome. If UE is successful, they all will present THEIR requests, and in the end IMSLP will be lost for a long time.

Alternative 2 is not pleasant for normal plain commoners as Mr. Feldmahler and his friends. but it is the only way to survive. Unfortunately the case IMSLP vs. UE has already become some kind of a pilot case, and therefore IMSLP or we altogether (incl. the community) will have to withstand UE and leave the fight as the winners.

In this given situation IMSLP should warmly welcome all allies they can get, including the pirate movement and people like me who are sympathizing with this movement without being party members.

It´s now the fight is going on. UE is already showing signs of weakness. If IMSLP loses this fight, many others will lose, too.

The fight is not about a few scores, it is about copyright itself, and how it is enforced, and whether Canada is a fully souvereign nation - as I hope - which on her own territory accepts her own legislation, but not the legislation of foreign countries.

If IMSLP yields or loses, also the viewpoint of public domain and the pirate movement supporting this viewpoint will lose ground for a long time.

Therefore there is no real choice, not for the runners of the IMSLP project, and not for us who claim that we are their friends.

The opponent (the "enemy") decides which means will be necessary to face and encounter him.

Sincerely
Odin

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Postby Kalli » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:20 am

Odin repeats my apprehension in this case. I think that there will be lots of other publishers who wait for their chance to fight against the IMSLP. I can't belive, that only the UE has got problems with their copyright.

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Postby Richard Black » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:42 am

Instead of issuing demand letters, making threats of what amounts to extortion via lawsuit, etc., why not instead offer to assist IMSLP in securing and installing the necessary software to block users from the EU from downloading works that are under copyright in the EU while leaving them free to download works that are public domain there?


But certainly: as an enthusiastic user of IMSLP I would be more than happy to contribute in such a way. Since my programming skills (such as they ever were) are certainly too rusty to be of practical help I'll offer to contribute financially. I'm sure something in the region of a few tens of US$ could find their way from me to IMSLP by one of the usual means.

There are clearly several issues getting confused here. First, if you think life plus 70 years is too long a term for copyright that's a fair view to hold but it's really a separate argument. Neither IMSLP nor UE makes the laws, though either may be able to influence the law-makers (presumably music publishers were happy enough to lobby governments to increase the copyright term a few years ago). But if you want the laws changed, talk to law-makers or vote them out of office.

It's obviously unreasonable, morally as well as legally, to claim that IMSLP is 'all right' because the scores are hosted in Canada. As I said before, by the same logic, just host everything in a country with no copyright law and bingo! No copyright. The ease of international transfer of IP will soon enough make it a priority for all nations to harmonise copyright laws anyway, so this is presumably only a temporary problem. For that very reason, now is the time to start lobbying your government if you think its copyright laws are excessive.

Trying to enrol IMSLP in the pirate movement seems unfair too. The idea of IMSLP, as advertised anyway, was to be a fundamentally legitimate resource.

In the founder's eyes, and many others', compliance with UE's demands would have opened the floodgates for more publishers to send similar c&d orders, lawsuits


That's a bit emotive. There was nothing to stop them sending such letters in the first place. Someone had to be first - it just happened to be UE. Of course the other publishers should make a similar demand. I would if I was a publisher.

Asking IMSLP, as in the first letter, to sign a statement assigning the jurisdiction to an Austrian court, and putting a minimum charge at 3000 euros per (supposed) infringiment, with no top limit, is so outlandish a request that nobody in his/her mind would have signed it.


Of course, but lawyers do like to blast first. That doesn't preclude the possibility of negotiating.

Asking IMSLP to put filters is also a bad request. Universal, as the copyright holder, has the right to have the copyright infringement stopped real soon now. But Universal has no right to decide the technical way to do it (it may prove difficult or even impossible).


Sure, but even suggesting a technical fix shows a helpful and co-operative attitude. I really don't see where UE and its lawyers have been heavy-handed and threatening. I've had more threatening lawyers' letters demanding payment of an overdue parking fine!

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Postby nikolas » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:55 am

Kali, You speak the truth in many issues indeed. And I agree on those issues (that UE will not be the last, etc, etc).

But watch the small difference:

You are discussing war, etc and prepare for battle to live in peace. but you forget the legallity of the situations which matters greatly. A simple example. Germans were ready for battle, entered the whole of Europe and were strong as hell, still most countries fought back, tiny Greece included (I'm Greek! :D) Being strong doesn't mean anything if you are wrong.

A second thing to comment about your post. You present things as black & white. I'm more of the grey colour myself (thus you see me agreeing in almost every post you and Odin have made, in most parts). There isn't just win or lose. There isn't just death or victory, we are not spartans (again Greek, but watched 300 recently as well! :D)

This is a situation that needs diplomacy. Not saying that the pirate party or you or anybody is not diplomatic or doing something wrong, mind you.

Since it is, in fact, illegal for me to be getting Bartok works (I am in London), I really don't see an alternative than to stop me from getting them. If there is a way for a judge to rule that, by all means, but my understanding is that this is too costly to try it out. And our reasoning means nothing in front of the law, no matter the logic behind us, or who we are. In the end a judge will truly say "yes, the fact that IMSLP warned teh users was enough" (maybe not use teh, but the, but whatever :D) or "No ISMLP could've done more to prevent copyright infrigment so... blah blah". Until this happens we are sitting in the dark and only can make assumptions. Certainly UE asking 3000 $/euros/£/whatever (although yen would be rather nice to ask :D) is totally unreasonable, and surely they must be hitting their heads right now, exactly for that reason, not to mention fire that lawyer who thought of that, but the rest still doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

And no matter the threatening tone (which comes from the lawyers, the girl posting here is rather nice, don't you think?), the wording, or whatever, it's not who started first, etc. My childern 2 and 4 years old use this argument "He started it!" I can't even begin to think that such a situation would have in each parties arguments that "they started it"...

My wish is that IMSLP reopens.
Myother wish (which I hope is legally possible) is for my children to hold copyright of my works for 5-10 years and then be released as public domain. I don't care about such idiotic law myself, but instead of trying to change it for everyone and forcing people into this, I'd rather do it myself for me, and hope that other will follow maybe?

Odin
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Some comments

Postby Odin » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:18 am

Hello Mr. Black and Nikolas

@Mr. Black:

I think you are one of them, you belong to the other side, since you are using their arguments. You accept the demands by UE, you woulddemand the same things if you were in their place, you find it natural and agreeable that many other publishers probably are lining up with their demands on IMSLP ..... and you more or less condemn the piracy movement. Don´t blame a new political movement which is still unproven in practical work in parliament.

So please be not angry if I believe that you are standing on THEIR side. Perhaps not in thought, but in the practical outcome. Your viewpoint is - if not the viewpoint of the opponent - at least the viewpoint of a loser.

@Nikolas

You are right, we are not the spartans at the Thermopylae under the king Leonidas. It is not black and white.

But that means: UE is neither black nor white, and IMSLP is neither black nor white.

Let us say that the one part is dark-grey and the other part is light-grey. For us and our common interest it is clear that UE is dark-grey and IMSLP very light-gray, almost white.

But once the fight is started - and it was UE who started it - you can not afford the grey scale when you are one of the combatants. That must wait until the fight is over.

Legality - yes, THEIR legality based on laws which they lobbied without any possibility for representatives of plain commoners like us to give another view on the legislation.

Now some of the commoners which are no longer willing to eaccept a repressive system have made a choice to form a new political movement about these issues. They can not only vote, they can take part in the elections with own candidates and with the goal to enter the national parliaments where the laws can be changed.

One more thing: let us suppose (not more than that) that UE might have a little bit of the law on their side - nobody forces them to go and offend the IMSLP. They had the choice not to start this action, and they have still the choice to withdraw their demands and requests and apologize. It would be very diplomatic if they would chose this way- giving them back a great portion of goodwill.

There is no law where there is no judge. And there is no judge when nobody contacts the court. UE´s action was unnecessary and unpleasant, whatever the legal situation may be.They can still back out, and I think they should.

Sincerely
Odin

Kalli
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Postby Kalli » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:20 am

@nikolas

My opinion is not to make war or something else. I think that we can find a very good solution, if we stay cool and think about it. And if the IMSLP will start a day later, caused of a day more, we need to discuss, that's better than to get more problems than we have in this moment.

And to your comment to our German history: the contemporary policy of Germany is to keep peace in every situation (for example: we are not willed to fight in the Iraq or somewhere else - but we want to help with humanitarian aid). We did many inexcuseable things in our history. I think, there's no space for one inexcuseable thing more! This accords to my opinion in this case of the IMSLP. So, we should be patient and look for a solution. I'm confident, we find a very good soultion, even in an agreemet with the UE and others. [I hope the sense of my words wasn't falsified by my English!]

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Postby nikolas » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:35 am

First of all @Kali: You're German??? I deeply appologize for my post and take back this example. It was just an example, please don't keep it in your mind. I actually don't fancy examples from history, and generally examples are there as exaclty that: examples, not arguments.

Please exept my deepest apppology to you :) (sp errors obviously but no time).

Now,

Mr. Black: I'm sorry to say but you very first post here revealed such a biased character in addition to ignorance that I simply don't read your posts anymore. I find the copyright discussions to be a little bit irrelavent, but somehow you wish for the old days to stay as they are... In this age and time, and thank god for the internet and people like Felmhaler (sp again), Odin and Kali the old days have come to pass, at least in my mind. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this is the case with real life as well.

Odin:

Yes, but still you are ready for battle. I understand that, but I just can't see the wrong in compling with a legal and reasonable demand (make the copyrighted scores unavaiable to those who shouldn't have them). I feel that you are reading too much into it. :)

Commoners, lobbied, laws, battles, these are words that I fear to use, myself. These are words that no "commoner" might use unless guided, and certainly I, a composer, won't use them or find any real meaning to them. Sure I understand what you are trying to say, and yes, I agree to the very general principal, but yet again you are discussing laws, which were made from the priviliged few, and so on. It stands true, but... this is IMSLP yet again... ;)

Being offended is NO crime at all. I mean, UE can offend all they want. Sure it hurts, hearts might bleed, I almost cried when I heard about IMSLP and then posted in all the music forums I know (kvraudio, NSS, CGempire, AGS) and I'm taking a part in this discussion. But by no means it has anything to do "we are offended". In a personal level, if you came up to me and said "Nikolas, blah blah", I would be offended in a personal level the IMSLP project is faceless, and the leader should also be non offended by no means! Even if as a real person he should be by UE actions.

One final thing I learned from my father: Laws, right or wrong, present or non present are there to solve disputes. The law will not necessarily point the right or wrong, but it will say "you are at fault, you aren't". The end of that. Not knowing the law is NOT an excuse for being illegal. This is also a fact. Have you ever read a law that said "don't kill"? I've not. So I can kill, cause I don't know if there is a law? difficult choice...



Kali: As I said, I deeply apologize for the German comment, I won't delete it so people know what you're reffering to, but it was just an example, please don't hold it on me. :)

I am, as I hope is obvious, a diplomat :) Battles, or non battles, if you can change the mind of your "opponent" why fight inthe first place? ;)

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Germany now and then

Postby Odin » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:35 am

Hello Nikolas

I agree with Kalli, being a German by birth like him. There is a difference if you prepare for war to keep your peace, or if you prepare for war to start a war. Hitler prepared Germany for war, told the people in the country and outside that he wanted to keep peace, and then started the war. He was simply a lier and a criminal. Germans today regret what the generation under Hitler did in Germany and in large parts of Europe, including Greece. He did not prepare for war to save peace, he prepared for war to raise a global empire - and all Europe still thanks God that Hitler was defeated.

Sincerely
Odin

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Postby nikolas » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:47 am

If you still want to discuss it, after I said 2 times I'm sorry about this comment, here is what the point I was trying to make:

Odin, you mentioned being prepared for war, and being strong so that the others will leave you alone.

If by any chance IMSLP is wrong, exactly as Hitler was, then what exactly is the difference in this otherwise lame and awful example?

What I mean is simply this:

Being ready for war and strong is no substitute to being right and legal.

Let's please put the German comment behind, it was the best I could find at that time and I took it back 2 times, and taking it back a 3rd time. Germany of now has NOTHING to do with the Germany (and Austria) of them, and I actually know how insulting it is for Germans and austrians to make such comparisons, only I didn't. I didn't threw even a tiny innuendo to compair Germany of today with back then. There is simply no comparison.

Please :)

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Postby Kalli » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:03 pm

@Nikolas

Don't be affraid. I'm not angry or affronted. You've just told us historic facts. The main thing is, that everybody should notice, that the Germans made many awful things in the past. The todays opinion of the german Goverment is, to make peace in every way, which is possible. That is why we don't fight in the Iraq or somewhere else. And believe me, we took a lesson of our past! An everybody should occupy hisself with that historic chapter. I think that this is very important to save the world for repeat a similar situation, that it was in the 1930s in Germany. Enough talk of that.

Let's go on, to find a solution to our problem with the UE (and others).

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Postby miguelm97 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:06 pm

In the UE list of composers that should be removed from IMSLPF is Gustav Mahler....hmmmm...i'm not an expert in copyright laws but his works are not in public domain?? After all, he died 96 years ago!

Odin
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I am not insulted

Postby Odin » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:10 pm

Hello Nikolas

I understand that you did not mean contemporary Germany, so that issue now is settled.

Once again on the UE issue:

IMSLP has no longer the real choice. To take the whole library from the "track" was simply a way to take a time-out while thinking about the next steps (I suppose) ....

Now my opinion is:

IMSLP is struggling for the survival of the project in its whole, and for the principle that Canadian law - and only Canadian law - must be obeyed by Canadian citizens living and acting in Canada.

UE is struggling for their income. And to do this they demanded a few things which they had the right to claim - in the EU - and several other things which they have no right to claim, not even in EU. The latter part is a clear case of copyfraud.

I have two reasons why I want to see them defeated - like in a combat:

Reason 1 - they claimed MORE than they were entitled to, and to discourage them for the future and to punish their effort to "go over the Rubicon" and to exceed the legal framework - they deserve to lose this quarrel and to get LESS than they have the right to.

Reason 2 - other publishers need to be discouraged to try the same swinery against IMSLP.

That´s the reason why the fight - which UE started - is necessary. Before diplomacy can take over UE must first promise to come to a table for negotiations - unarmed and without any lawyers but equipped with a deep respect for their counterpart and for Canada and the Canadian sovereignty.

I am sorry, Nikolas, but to express all these things I must extend my English to my personal borderline. Unfortunately I know no Greek ... but I know from history that your ancestors invented democracy.

Sincerely
Odin

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Postby Richard Black » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:05 pm

Mr. Black: I'm sorry to say but you very first post here revealed such a biased character


You could fairly say that of most contributors to this debate. Anyone with an opinion can be described as 'biased'.

Actually all I have said is that with the law as it stands, UE has simply behaved as it _MUST_, effectively. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

I haven't expressed an opinion on whether the law as it stands, internationally, is fair and just because that doesn't seem to me the issue. If you want to get the law changed you might just as easily find me strongly behind you.


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