Status update of UE negotiations

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Vivaldi
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Postby Vivaldi » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:45 am

You're going to get a lot of hate mails from Austrians :)

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:58 am

Quickly, say Beethoven was Austrian! That might save you!. :P:P

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Postby Vivaldi » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:40 am

What about Joseph Haydn, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Franz Schubert, Gustav Mahler and the Strauss family? Not to mention Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger? They're good and famous people.

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:15 am

I remember hearing a joke that Austrians always try to say that Hitler was German, and Beethoven was Austrian.

And the Strauss family is horrible, can't stand waltzes...

Richard Strauss (not the same family) is a different matter. :P

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Postby Vivaldi » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:58 am

Beethoven an Austrian? Hard to imagine where this joke came from though when he was born in Bonn.

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:25 am

He spent most of his composing life there. Wouldn't you rather to have Beethoven than Hitler? :P

Postwar Austria, as the old joke has it, managed to make most of the world believe that Ludwig van Beethoven was an Austrian and Adolf Hitler a German.
Source: http://www.historycooperative.org/cgi-b ... r_175.html

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Postby Vivaldi » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:45 pm

Okay, you have a point there. Better watch ourselves before this veers off topic.

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Postby akrotirifry » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:05 pm

hi i m new to the discussion
but jst wanna say that
whatever happns
imslp must live, freedom must live

SaschaPascal
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Postby SaschaPascal » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:21 pm

Well, as we should remember:

Neither Beethoven nor Mozart nor anyone of the famous classical componists of Vienna were originally Austrian. Not even the writer of the Hymn of Austria.

Well, when I saw in December, that an Austrian company have forced the IMSLP to go offline, i felt ashame. Because I live in Austria, not in Vienna but in Salzburg (you know, Mozart and Sound of Music :D) (originally from Hamburg) and before I found the IMSLP I weren't interested in classical music. I only came onto this page looking for scores to type in, just for fun, well, when I remember right, I only looked for versions of the Te Deum by Charpentier and the Canon in D by Pachelbel.

But then I recognized the big library and began to make some little soundclips with Cubase of Beethoven or Mozart songs. Well, I don't play an instrument (not even a recorder :D), well, I'm more interested in typing the music score into former Cubase and now Finale and then listen to it. (And, by the way, learned a much about crescendo, pizzicato etc.)

Without the IMSLP, I would never had getting interested in the classical part of the music world, because
- the sheets in the shops are so expensive (also for sheets, which are originally public domain)
- mostly you have not the chance to get the music song you really looking for, mostly they have only a little part of the classical music (in Salzburg of course most of Mozart, but not much of other musicians)

The UE don't do a good job to anybody, it seems to me:
- without the IMSLP less people will get interested in classical music
- so the componists, and also the ones UE thinks they represent (the living and the not even 70 years long dead people like Mahler, Bartok and Karajan) will not get so much knowledged in the world
- so the whole classical music world get a ditch of the UE behaviour.

That's in my eyes a stupid behaviour, because so they make persons, who would have been probably customers of UE, angry of this company. So fewer people now probably will buy sheets then at the time, the IMSLP existed.

I don't say anything about the issue, that we have the problem, that in the EU and the USA copyright lasted as long as 70 years after the death of the person. It's questionable, why it's so long, the 50 years, also half a century, of Canada are in my eyes enough time for the componist and his childs and grandchilds to get enough money out. (And, as a question, what will they do in 20 years, when the first highsellers like Buddy Holly and Ritchie Valens get PD?)

The problem with the UE is one thing in my opinion: this stupid elite thinking, many "educated people" in Europe and America have. From my studying I know many people, who thinks, that they are something better, because they are educated and have the ability to get for example scores of Mozart. And the people, who are interested in classical music, but don't have the money to buy the highpriced scores, are "stupid and non-elite".

And projects like the wikipedia (the discussions in Austria and Germany about the correctness of the wiki are so ideological, that you could cry, when a professor is writing only shit into a book, he is good, when the wikipedia presents good information for everyone, the wiki is bad and not citable. A thinking of the emperor age in my eyes) and die IMSLP are against such elite thinking: everyone, who is interested in classical music, were able to find the music, he wanted, for free. A great step for the arts education in the world could this bring to us, but education of the mass is not the think, companies like UE want: I think, they want to resist against all attempts to take away the old overcome emperor elite thinking and behaviour.

Classical music, when it's PD in law, should be available via internet. The internet is for communication and information, not for commercials and sells of companies. When the UE would be a company who really wanted the "E-music" getting a greater popularity, they would not write C+D-letters, but would ask: "Well, the idea is good, but there are problems with non-PD-music on your site. We would help you to solve this problem by supporting you and sponsoring you. Is that an idea for you?"

I don't say anything about the capitalism right now. I'm not non-capitalism, I'm only angry about the stupidity, the companies and their CEOs are showing: because of their economical education, which says, that the only important thing in the world is making as much money as possible, they do everything again PD and free areas in the world, where they are able to.

And so they lose the chance to meet one of the goals of the internet: with the internet you can bring "meritorical things" (a thing, they mostly don't know, meritical means, that there things like classic music or books are not produced and published as much as they should, mostly because of economical reasons, printing classical scores in high numbers would not make much money in the bilance) much cheaper, faster and better to the people, so that the range of the persons, who gets interested in things like good books, classical music, documentations and so on would increase.

And in the end, they are biting in their one tail, because with shutting down pages like the IMSLP (I know, feldmahler took it offline itself, but only with the intention of the UE) the range of people will not increase. And perhabs, because of making the people, who already known the IMSLP, angry, the UE will probably decrease the number of customers they have.

And that's stupidity. And as I said in the beginning, sometimes when such things happen, you get ashamed because you're living in a country like Austria, where there are so much well-educated people, but they have so less knowledge about other things than making money. And that, see UE, also in parts of the economy, where you would normally think other things like making the arts popular are also important.

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:46 pm

nor anyone of the famous classical componists of Vienna were originally Austrian.
Mahler, was born in the (then) Austrian Empire. Haydn was born in an Austrian Village. Schoenberg was born in Vienna. Schubert, also in Vienna. Webern, again, Vienna. Berg was also in Vienna. Austria still has a few famous composers.

Thankyou for a wonderful and supportive post though. :)

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Postby SaschaPascal » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:35 pm

Well, ok, there you're right, but most of the componists Vienna and Austria is proud of where not native Austrians. Interesting to know is, if Mozart or Beethoven would have asked to be Austrians, if it had been needed in that time ;)

By the way, in my last radio programm I have used the IMSLP and UE as an example for things, I don't like with music companies (the main topic was, that nowadays you're not allowed to make any copy from an copy-saved CD, neither by download or ripping, also when you've selled much money for the CD)

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Postby Theo Delight » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:28 pm

Vivaldi wrote:You're going to get a lot of hate mails from Austrians :)


At least they will be sincere... :)

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Postby Theo Delight » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:25 pm

SaschaPascal wrote:
The UE don't do a good job to anybody, it seems to me:



Least of all for themselves, as is demonstrated by their increasingly risible attempts to claim they weren't the cause of the (temporary) demise of IMSLP. The tale posted by Herr Jonathan Irons seems intended to make it seem as if UE is, somehow, the victim - but does anyone really believe such disingenuous poppycock?

(And yes, I do know that "poppycock" is derived from the Hollandse expression, "pappe kak" :))

SaschaPascal wrote:I don't say anything about the issue, that we have the problem, that in the EU and the USA copyright lasted as long as 70 years after the death of the person. It's questionable, why it's so long, the 50 years, also half a century, of Canada are in my eyes enough time for the componist and his childs and grandchilds to get enough money out. (And, as a question, what will they do in 20 years, when the first highsellers like Buddy Holly and Ritchie Valens get PD?)


They'll probably try to get it extended again.

Most baroque music was never actually copyrighted. These days, the convention is that the copyright of a work belongs to the person who created it unless assigned elsewhere, but it was no always so. When Walsh published Handel's Opus 6 Concerti grossi in 1740, the publisher and the author had to obtain (and pay for) "a privilege of copyright" to protect that work.

SaschaPascal wrote:
The problem with the UE is one thing in my opinion: this stupid elite thinking, many "educated people" in Europe and America have. From my studying I know many people, who thinks, that they are something better, because they are educated and have the ability to get for example scores of Mozart. And the people, who are interested in classical music, but don't have the money to buy the highpriced scores, are "stupid and non-elite".



It's just silly to think like that. Many of the scores are available at any decent music library, where one can copy out the scores even if one is not allowed to photocopy them because the originals are too fragile, or because the scores are actually original autograph scores. What IMSLP did was to save the trouble of having to visit a music library, which made sheet music more accessible to people with mobility difficulties.

What UE did was, in that respect, not far removed from kicking away a cripple's crutches or letting down the tires of a paraplegic's wheelchair.

SaschaPascal wrote:Classical music, when it's PD in law, should be available via internet. The internet is for communication and information, not for commercials and sells of companies. When the UE would be a company who really wanted the "E-music" getting a greater popularity, they would not write C+D-letters, but would ask: "Well, the idea is good, but there are problems with non-PD-music on your site. We would help you to solve this problem by supporting you and sponsoring you. Is that an idea for you?"


But not only does Herr Jonathan Irons not believe that the concept is good, he seems unable to understsnd that sponsoring the IMSLP might be the best wsy out of the hole into which UE has dug itself. He (and his employers) seem to think of music solely as a means to make money. perhaps because money is all they really like.

SaschaPascal wrote:I don't say anything about the capitalism right now. I'm not non-capitalism, I'm only angry about the stupidity, the companies and their CEOs are showing: because of their economical education, which says, that the only important thing in the world is making as much money as possible, they do everything again PD and free areas in the world, where they are able to.

And so they lose the chance to meet one of the goals of the internet: with the internet you can bring "meritorical things" (a thing, they mostly don't know, meritical means, that there things like classic music or books are not produced and published as much as they should, mostly because of economical reasons, printing classical scores in high numbers would not make much money in the bilance) much cheaper, faster and better to the people, so that the range of the persons, who gets interested in things like good books, classical music, documentations and so on would increase.


Would UE be willing to pay royalties to Tim Berners-Lee (who invented the WWW) and, if not, why not?

After all, if it were not for HTML, they'd not have much of an on-line business, would they?

If they have not offered to pay royalties, are they not hypocrites?

SaschaPascal wrote:And in the end, they are biting in their one tail, because with shutting down pages like the IMSLP (I know, feldmahler took it offline itself, but only with the intention of the UE) the range of people will not increase. And perhabs, because of making the people, who already known the IMSLP, angry, the UE will probably decrease the number of customers they have.


How much classical (and more modern) music is available on-line from the Library of Congress?

I'd really like to see Herr Jonathan Irons and those kooky, krackpot krauts try the same antics there... :)

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Postby SaschaPascal » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:17 pm

Most baroque music was never actually copyrighted. These days, the convention is that the copyright of a work belongs to the person who created it unless assigned elsewhere, but it was no always so. When Walsh published Handel's Opus 6 Concerti grossi in 1740, the publisher and the author had to obtain (and pay for) "a privilege of copyright" to protect that work.


Well, in the time of the barock a copyright would have been quite useless, because you couldn't copy a music played by Bach himself with another musician, every musician have it's own style. And without the right to copy the notes the componists of the past hadn't been known for a great audience, you couldn't travel from Munich to Hamburg only to listen to a musical, and the Lords wanted to listen to the Opera in their own theatre.

The problem is: The companies use the copyright laws in a way with were not intended in the first copyright laws. They wanted to save the original componist, that his work or parts of it cannot be claimed by another person, and that you have to show up the sources of your citates. It was against bad plagiats (and in some times, for example in the sixties, when there were many cover bands playing the hits of the beat bands in small locations, they allowed it, when it was obvious, that's covered and then anybody have given the tantiemes.)

But since you can copy music quite good (since the tape recorders were available), the music industry misinterprets the laws. They use them since then against the customers. Well, a time, after a short time they invented the "Urheberrechtssteuer" in Germany, since then a short fee (not really feeled) is on every bought empty tape, CD, DVD and on every tape-, CD and DVD-recorder. They didn't do more, because they recognizes, that sharing the music within the friendship expands the range of customers.

And now, with the internet, they get into panic, because now you needn't a device, where these fees are on, to copy music. And you can share not only with your friends, but with everybody who wants to share (but aren't that also friends? For the religious people the bible says, that we are all brothers and sisters, and for the others the humanists like Darwin says the same ;) ).

The stupid thing is, that nowadays companies are mis-using the law, using it against the customers, who never had done this in the past. I don't think, that UE would have bring legal force against a musician, who had copied this sheets, for example for practise or who had give a copy to the friends. Also the copying from the libraries were not allowed, but tolerated.

In my eyes, such attacts like the one from UE are only because the companies recognize, that they have a huge problem: they don't know really (and me also ;) ), how they can survive against a media like the internet, with overcome their old system of selling content ;) They are frightened about the fact, that in 10 years or so only a few of the old media companies will have survived the internet revolution. And so they force against every new invention with their copyrights ;)

But, and that let me make sure, the IMSLP will come back: Since now they weren't able to stop the success of the internet.

It's just silly to think like that. Many of the scores are available at any decent music library, where one can copy out the scores even if one is not allowed to photocopy them because the originals are too fragile, or because the scores are actually original autograph scores. What IMSLP did was to save the trouble of having to visit a music library, which made sheet music more accessible to people with mobility difficulties.

What UE did was, in that respect, not far removed from kicking away a cripple's crutches or letting down the tires of a paraplegic's wheelchair.


Well, libraries are not like the IMSLP or similar internet projects:
- In the most libraries you have only a few scores. I have grown up in a town with 30.000 people, and both libraries in the area didn't had any score of a famous componist. The only library for this would probably in Hamburg, 20 kilometres far away, but towns, which are farer away from big cities, have no libraries in the nearer by, which have scores.
Also here in Salzburg we have only one library with a huge storage of scores, and that is not the city library, but the library of the Mozarteum, where you are only allowed to rent books, when you are student.
- And also the big libraries have not every score. In Germany only the National Library in Frankfurt have one of most of the in Germany ever printed books. And there you normally can't rent books ;) Ok, I haven't heard about the Library of Congress (seems to be the American congress, am I right?), but most libraries have online-connection only for online-booking, not for download or so.
- The music-libraries, you mentioned, are as I said very few. I only know about the one in the Mozarteum. So the most people have no offline connection to scores.
- Well, and one more think: many people are too lazy or have to less time to drive to one of the big libraries and lending scores. The customer number in libraries is quite small, and I think, that it make a big afford, when you can download the files at home. As I said: before IMSLP I also have not looked for scores.


But not only does Herr Jonathan Irons not believe that the concept is good, he seems unable to understsnd that sponsoring the IMSLP might be the best wsy out of the hole into which UE has dug itself. He (and his employers) seem to think of music solely as a means to make money. perhaps because money is all they really like.


Well, you mean, they are only business men, not artists?
Perhabs you're right, but also a good business man would now: When I sponsor programs, I will get an afford out of it ;)

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Re: UE website - Statement

Postby rconroy » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:13 pm

monteverdi wrote:Are you all aware that there is a statement about the IMSLP case on UE's website? It's quite interesting to read, I think.
Maybe we all should send our opinion in written form to UE as they don't seem to take it serious what is obvious here in these forums.

You find it there:

http://www.uemusic.at/truman/en_templat ... f_id=14921

(The German title says: »The Rise and Fall of IMSLP«)


Indeed, I received a courteous and prompt reply from Mr Irons when I emailed him about my concerns. I quote it here in full, as it seems that UE is being demonised rather hastily. When I replied, thanking him for taking the time to reply, he told me that everyone who has emailed UE has been replied to. Both this and the tone of his email strike me as far from the unreasonable stance that has been alleged in some quarters.

Text of UE's reply
thanks for your e-mail. We are of course concerned that you should feel that Universal Edition has acted inappropriately. Whilst copyright protection exists for composers (and their families) after their death, we are entitled and indeed obliged to follow up on copyright violations.

We contacted the administrators of the IMSLP and voiced our concerns. There were no lawyers involved and our letter was polite. The IMSLP flatly refused to even discuss the issues concerned with us, simply stating that we were wrong. That is of course no basis for a cooperation - indeed your suggestion that the administrators deserve our support is something that we cannot confirm.

Apart from this, we have no idea why the website was taken down - and why it is still down, although everyone seems to think they were in the right. Can it really be true that a whole site has to close simply because UE complains about 70 works? Is it really not possible that there might be another reason? Is it not a happy coincidence to be able to point the finger of blame at a respected publishing house?

The idea of the IMSLP is applaudable. But please remember, for them to freely distribute public domain sheet music, someone has to publish that sheet music in the first place. Is it not ironic that the site includes sheet music by Mahler, who would be widely unknown today (as he was in the 1960's) if it were not for UE?


So why is IMSLP still down?

Ronán


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