A couple of typeset style questions

[varnis]

I hope someone more knowledgeable than I can answer me two questions

a) Suppose the original orchestral score has 1 cello staff with usual unis. and div. markings, but in places separater out into 2 separate staves (a and b) then into 6 before back into 1, would it be better to leave as is, is produce the cello part with additional staves if and when, or better to duplicate all the single staff writing and produce a cello 1 and 2

b) When writing for piano, where cross stave notes are present, does one still place hairpins between the staves, or would one place these above or below the staff

Oh and finally, am i being stupid or does E 3 ledger lines above the top of the tenor staff sound improbable for bassoon (See ravel piano concerto no.1, first movement, mark 9 onwards)

[Carolus]

1. If the cello part is divided first into 2, then 6 staves, it is best to have it this way also in the part - unless it is a very simple two-voiced texture (like parallel 3rds or 6ths). It's OK to have multiple staves in a cello part, as long as the page-turns are still reasonable.

2. Yes, the hairpins generally still go between the staves, unless the cross-staff texture is very thick and complex.

3. The high E for Bassoon is certainly possible for professional-level players. Keep in mind that the opening Bassoon solo in Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps goes up to a high D (a ninth above middle C).

[varnis]

Thankyou very much for your prompt response carolus, its just a pity i cant post my work here, * Raises fist in the general direction of Sony BMG and Disney *

[audunsj]

I would suggest you read Norman del Mar's excellent book "Anathomy of the orchestra" (University of California Press). Especially the part called Divided playing (pp. 36-44).

[varnis]

Thanks for the tip, ill look into it

[pml]

1. In terms of the mechanics of computer typesetting, you may be in the situation of having to tweak both the full score and the parts in separate ways for best effect. The problem is actually quite common in classical era works where a bass stave marked "Vc. Cb." or "Bassi" in the full score is often expected to do double (or triple or quadruple) duty for cellos and double basses in the first case - and possibly bassoon ad libitum, and organ or other keyboard continuo in the other! There's a compromise between leaving the part exactly as the full score shows it, or if there are substantial passages for one instrument that differ from the other, to only show the relevant material.

Specifically, if there are occasionally two parts and occasionally as many as six, I would think the best compromise between showing as much as is needed and keeping page turns playable would be to assume that two parts is the default minimum, and each of the two parts occasionally might require as many as three staves to cover the six separate lines across the two physical parts; but since two string players normally share a part, even this might cause problems since if there are only as few as six players to play six lines, which would involve three desks...

Sometimes the six lines can be combined on fewer than six actual staves, which also helps the number of page turns provided it doesn't introduce ambiguities or difficulties reading the parts. I remember reading through the 1st and 2nd violin parts at the start of Gurrelieder, which had each of the two sets of 10 desks on a separate stave, resulting in lots of page turns... :) :)

2. As Carolus mentioned, hairpins are permitted to cross over lines, but at this point the question of typesetting is more an artistic one balancing the rule of not having objects collide versus placing the hairpin in the "wrong" position. There are numerous books on the art of typesetting, let alone musical typesetting :-)

3. Improbable, but not impossible, and Ravel probably wanted that rather nasty strangled sound that you tend to get up there :)

[steltz]

The high E question has another element to it: there is a difference between French and German bassoon-making and, therefore, bassoon tonal qualities. I'm not sure whether the preference for thinner tone created the manufacturing differences or the other way round, but the French bassoons traditionally have a thinner sound, and the way the bore is drilled (probably narrower), the high notes are easier to play. Stravinsky wrote Rite of Spring for a French orchestra, so the opening was easier for French bassoonists than German bassoonists. There is a structural difference between a bassoon and a basson. The nationalistic differences in woodwind tone have been less pronounced in the last 20-30 years due to a more global-village attitude amongst musicians, and also availability of recordings, but the French woodwind quintet recordings of the 60s show the more "traditional" French woodwind sounds.