Haydn Symphonies

[Robert.Allen]

We recently got pocket scores of all the symphonies of Haydn and thought perhaps they could be uploaded to IMSLP. But the first page of music for Symphony No.1 has a copyright notice: "© Copyright 1962 by Ludwig Doblinger (Bernhard Herzmansky) K.G., Wien, München" There is a number centered below it (plate number?) which looks like: "D.10.511" The other symphonies seem to have the same notice with the number increasing sequentially. (I didn't check absolutely all of them.) But it seems possible this edition is not be a good candidate for uploading to IMSLP. Is that correct?

(These came from Konrad Stein: he got them from http://www.haydn107.com/index.php?id=2, and he identifies the edition as: "Joseph Haydn: Kritische Ausgabe sämtlicher Symphonien, i–xii, ed. H.C.R. Landon, Philharmonia ser., Vienna, 1965–8" )

[Carolus]

The potential problem with these lies in their USA status. The notice is valid, which leaves the question of determining renewal status. Since they were published more than 30 years on 1/1/1996, they were public domain in the country of origin (as critical editions) and therefore ineligible for "restoration" if they weren't renewed after 28 years. The renewals for works first published 1951 forward are contained in the US Copyright Office's online records: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebre ... PAGE=First

If they were renewed, it means we'd have to tag them as copyright in the USA until 2058 (95 years after publication), until the day a case is decided in the Federal courts which directly addresses critical editions which determines the validity of copyright claims for such editions in the USA. If no renewal was filed, they are free in the USA. As it stands, they are free in Canada and the EU, as long as you omit the editor's preface or similar contributions of original authorship by the editor.

[Robert.Allen]

I searched with the following: "(robbins AND landon)* in Keyword Anywhere (GKEY)] AND (haydn AND sinfonia)* in Keyword Anywhere (GKEY)]" Some, but not all, showed up as renewed (nos. 64, 66, 70, 74, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83, 84, 85, 85, 86, 87, 87, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 95, 96, 97, 98). So does that mean we can upload any of the others?

If yes, does the copyright notice need to be removed?

Thanks for your help, Robert

[Carolus]

No need to remove the notice if no renewal was done. Just put a line in the Misc. Comment field - "No renewal found." or something similar.

[daphnis]

I would also make a request for future's sake that even those renewed (and thus free in Canada, the E.U., and other life+50 or 70 territories) be uploaded, if you have time, that is. Having the complete Haydn symphonies in full score would be welcome gem in our collection. Thank you for your contributions!

[Robert.Allen]

We should all thank Konrad Stein. Apparently he is a new member at IMSLP, but he has been active on the German Wikipedia in the area of music for several years and has been a major contributor to that endeavor.
Robert

[pml]

Although the Robbins Landon set of symphonies were printed in 12 volumes, it seems unlikely that the copyright status of each of the 12 volumes will determine the status of the symphonies in the set. A quick comparison shows the copyright dates on several symphonies within the same volume occasionally differ (the Haydn-Mozart Presse presumably didn't print them in any particular order?):

Volume 1: symphonies A(107), B(108), 1–12 (A=1965, B=1960, 1&2=1962, 3-8=1965)
Volume 2: symphonies 13–28 (13=1963)
Volume 3: symphonies 29–40 (29=1964)
Volume 4: symphonies 41–49 (41=1965, 44=1966)
Volume 5: symphonies 50–57 (50=1951! also, not edited by HCRL)
Volume 6: symphonies 58–65 (58=1958)
Volume 7: symphonies 66–73 (66=1965)
Volume 8: symphonies 74–81 (74=1965)
Volume 9: symphonies 82-87 (Paris; all six © 1963)
Volume 10: symphonies 88-92 & 105 (Concertante) (D'Ogny/Tost; 88–91=1964, 92=1962, 105=1965)
Volume 11: symphonies 93-98 (Salomon/London 1; 93,94,95,97=1965, 96=1962, 98=1961)
Volume 12: symphonies 99-104 (Salomon/London 2; all six © 1967)

Also, the set was reprinted a couple of times, which seems to be why some plates are Haydn-Mozart Presse and others are Doblinger (Herzmansky). Wasn't 1963 the last year that renewals needed to be filed for, as the granting of renewals became automatic? (Edit: Carolus confirmed this at http://imslp.org/wiki/User_talk:Robert. ... Symphonies - symphonies from 1964 or later will fall foul of the technical block, which combined with the renewals that Robert mentioned would block all but one of the Paris symphonies as well as symphonies 88 through to 104.)

Regards, Philip

Edit: Plus Symphonies Hob.I: 105 (Concertante), 107 (Sinfonia “A”) and 108 (Sinfonia “B”)

[Robert.Allen]

Per daphnis' request I am planning to upload all the symphonies from this set regardless of U.S. status.

Question: should I create new pages for Nos. 13-18, or add them to the existing page? (There is already a single page for these 6 symphonies, which were apparently together in one file.)

[Carolus]

Below is a list of Robbins Landon edited symphonies in reprint from the Kalmus catalog:

58, 59, 60, 61
82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92

Others ''could'' be public domain in the USA if all the conditions are met. The fact that the above symphonies are available for sale from Kalmus at present is confirmation of their PD status in the USA - they can be tagged with a "V". Robbins Landon edited a couple of volumes of symphonies for the abortive issue of the complete works started in the 1950s. These volumes are listed in Heyer as Vols. 9 and 10, issued in 1950 and 1951 by the Haydn Society in Boston and consist of symphonies 82-92. Another volume (5), edited by Helmut Schultz, contains symphonies 50-57 and was issued in 1952. The symphonies were continued later by Haydn-Mozart Presse / Doblinger starting in the early 1960s.

[pml]

Thanks for that, Carolus. Although I suspected there must have been several stages of printing the set, it is good to hear that there was an earlier issue of volumes 9 and 10; though this conflicts now with the list of renewals that Robert found. Would the copyright dates on the Doblinger scores (82–87 © 1963, 88–91 © 1964, 92 © 1962, Concertante 105 © 1965) be “scarecrows”, given that the plates from the earlier printing would presumably have been used more or less unaltered? Volume 9 is 309 pages long and volume 10 is 369, which seems like a lot to reset from scratch.

Regards, PML

[Carolus]

I expect that is the case, as it would have been needlessly expensive to have them all engraved again. After all, we're not talking about Muzgiz here - who apparently re-engraved things at whim, maybe just to keep the guys with the zinc plates and punches busy. It's also possible that Landon changed his mind about a few things in the intervening years between the issues. I have access to the 1950 and 51 volumes at the local university library, so it should be possible to compare them with the Doblinger issues.

[pml]

Hi all,

I've uploaded the 8 symphonies edited by Schulz in volume 5 of the HCR Landon set, which are dated to 1951, and that I couldn't find renewal notices for - however, when it comes to the serpentine (good sinuous word, that!) technicalities of the US copyright renewals system, I shrink from absolute confidence that I've exhausted the possibility of there being records of them having been renewed; Carolus, would you be so good as to check these? I drew a blank on Schulz, besides the actual numbers in the set (symphonies 50 through to 57).

Regards, Philip

[pml]

Symphonies Hob. I: 58 to 81 are now up; though only 58 to 61 seem to be PD in the US according to what I can glean from the previous discussion, since the Kalmus site invariably doesn't cite HCRL as the editor; unfortunately for the rest the usual 95 years in the US applies. I'll put the London symphonies up later tonight, which should complete the set.

PML :)