Estienne Roger

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VictorEijkhout
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Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:09 am

I'm trying to upload my arrangements of a couple of songs from this collection: http://www.simonplantinga.nl/oude-en-ni ... tredansen/

For as far as I can tell, these folk songs and dances have no known composer. The publisher and editor is Estienne Roger, so I thought for the moment Id list him as the composer.

No composer page for him exists, so I thought I'd create it.

But that ran into the fact that there is already a wiki article about him.

Advise please.

Victor.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby Carolus » Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:54 am

There is already a category for Roger as a person (along with the publisher category). I added a collection page for Oude en Nieuwe Hollantse Boerenlieties en Contredansen now so you can add your arrangements to it. Be sure to 'associate' your user name with your own category page the next time you log in as it will make the adding much easier and does many things automatically.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:47 pm

Carolus wrote:I added a collection page for Oude en Nieuwe Hollantse Boerenlieties en Contredansen


Thanks. Two movements uploaded. I'm not sure that I agree with listing Estienne as composer. If you read his bio it's clear that he's a publisher (and plagiarist.....), not a composer himself.

Be sure to 'associate' your user name with your own category page the next time you log in as it will make the adding much easier and does many things automatically.


Done.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:03 pm

Hm. It seems I now have a separate page as an arranger:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Eijkhout ... r/Arranger

which is not editable. I would really like to remove my bio there and point to my composer page instead:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Eijkhout,_Victor

since I consider that my prime work. Right now if someone finds my arrangements there is no link to my compositions.

Victor.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:01 pm

On

http://imslp.org/wiki/Oude_en_Nieuwe_Ho ... ,_Estienne)

the last two scores Princesse Nouvelle and Het Eesel Schreit are flipped, that is the title links to the other score.

Victor.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby Carolus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:44 pm

Your confusing a tab with a separate page (a subcategory). You appear as composer, arranger and performer.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:51 pm

Carolus wrote:Your confusing a tab with a separate page (a subcategory). You appear as composer, arranger and performer.


Don't think so. The link

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Eijkhout ... r/Arranger

exists independently. It's not a tab. In fact, if I try to open the Arrangements tab on my page it does not go there.

Ok, I just noticed the fine print "(The following text was automatically transcluded from Category:Eijkhout, Victor.)" I didn't notice that the first half dozen times I looked at my arranger page. My problem is that that page is independently findable and there is no obvious link (other than that fine print) to point people to my compositions. I had rather that there was just one page for me, and not 3.

But if that is how the system works, just let it be.

Victor.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby KGill » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:40 am

I have to agree that it would almost certainly be clearer in general if the other tabs (compositions, etc.) appeared from the Arranger page--the subcategories are a little disconnected from their parent as it is.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:53 am

Next issue with this collection.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Oude_en_Nieuwe_Ho ... ,_Estienne)

Initially my harmornizations were all going to be for recorder quartet SATB, but on request from some group that does not have a bass recorder I've started doing some SAAT arrangements. And I may do some other groupings in the future. Is it ok if I put that information in the name of the composition? "This is the Title (SAAT)".

The classification "4 recorders" is too coarse for many people. Even if IMSLP would not have search on the exact composition of the recorder quartet, having that information on the page without having to open the score would be appreciated by people who are just browsing.

Victor.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby Davydov » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:25 am

This raises a few interesting issues. Firstly, the workpage you mentioned is for a collection of 996 anonymous works, which were published as "Oude en Nieuwe Hollantse Boerenlieties en Contredansen" by the Amsterdam music publishers Estienne Roger and Pieter Mortier between 1700 and 1716. Worldcat indicates they were reprinted by Frits Knuf in 1972 and 1985.

IMSLP's approach to these kinds of collections has evolved over the years, but under our current guidelines the author should be "Anonymous", and both Estienne Roger and Pieter Mortier should be credited as editors and publishers of the original collection. As the original collection doesn't appear (yet) on the workpage, this will have to be done in a footnote. I'll take care of this (and the compilation "12 Violin Sonatas" similarly credited to Roger).

The next question is how many of the individual pieces are you intending to arrange for recorders? If the number of individual files reaches the hundreds then this slows down the page dramatically, eventually to the point where it won't load at all. The way to avoid this is by merging the PDF files for the individual pieces to create a smaller number of larger files. You could group these by the forces used (one file for SATB recorders, another for SAAT), and list the titles of the pieces together in the "Misc. Notes" field for the file.

Alternatively, if you have no immediate plans to arrange other songs, then the arrangements already shown there now could be re-ordered and grouped together depending on whether they're arranged for SATB or SAAT. The arrangement can be mentioned in the "Misc. Notes" field of the files, rather than in the titles, where it can cause some technical problems.

So, in summary, there are two options, depending on the number of files involved:
1) If there are to be fewer than 100 arrangements, group the individual files by SATB , SATB (etc.)
2) If there are likely to be more, merge the individual PDF files to create larger files, according to how the pieces are scored.

I hope that makes sense, but please come back to me if you have any questions.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:06 pm

Davydov wrote:So, in summary, there are two options, depending on the number of files involved:
1) If there are to be fewer than 100 arrangements, group the individual files by SATB , SATB (etc.)
2) If there are likely to be more, merge the individual PDF files to create larger files, according to how the pieces are scored.


Thanks. Carolus had raised the same issue of volume in a private message. He suggested that if I arrange too many of these the page might be split along the 13 volumes that Roger published.

Your solution is a possible one too. I will definitely arrange more, but nothing close to the 996 original pieces. Right now I'm guessing around 200. We'll see.

Victor.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby Carolus » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:03 am

If Roger was the complier or the person who actually assembled the collection, he should be listed as the 'author' - of the collection (only), not (necessarily) of any of the works within. He night not be the person who did this however, as the name Pieter Mortier is in the mix also, in which case the collection's author would be Anonymous. Many libraries either list a collection under the author whose work is the first item (not the best practice, IMO) or under the name of the person responsible for editing or arranging the whole volume - who in many cases is also the one who actually assembled the volume. As an aside, collections are protected by copyright for a full term (life plus 50 in Canada, plus 70 in the EU/US) as long as the compilation is original in nature (32 Piano Sonatas by Beethoven would not qualify). So it makes sense to have the compiler as the collection author from the legal standpoint as well. If Roger (long dead) was the complier, I can't see anyone making claims about original compilations with respect the these unless it is a really unique assembly of items. A problem which arises with listing collections with either "Various" or "Anonymous" in the author slot arises not with titles like this (which is pretty unique), but with the more generic things of which there might be literally hundreds around - like 100 Favorite Piano Pieces. Added to this are a series of issues which arise when arrangements are made of anonymous works taken from massive collections like this one. For an individual work arranged by you, then supplemented with arrangements done by Höger and Rondeau, having a single page for the work in question actually works very pretty well since we'll end up populating it with 10 files or more. The trouble with our old prolific friend Anonymous is that there are far too many pieces stretching over centuries which share the same title, like a nice generic "Gavotte in C major". So we then must resort to things such as Gavotte in C major, ONHBC 1.27 (Anonymous) to keep it unique.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby Davydov » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:04 am

In the past I've also argued for treating the compiler as the author, but two factors cause me to take a different view in this case. Firstly, the reprints of this edition listed in Worldcat don't give Roger as the author (in fact they only acknowledge Marie Veldhuyzen as the editor of this later reprint).

The reference to the 18th century publication is "Facsimiles of the collections published in Amsterdam c. 1700-1716 under this title by Estienne Roger and Pieter Mortier", when it's known that Roger and Mortier were both Dutch music publishers. In the circumstances it's difficult to justify crediting Roger alone, and it's unclear whether he, Mortier, both of them, or some unknown third party, was the compiler of the original series.

While I share your reluctance to swell the "Anonymous" category still further, I can't see any alternative here. Incidentally, the other compilation of 12 Violin Sonatas attributed to Roger as the composer (sic) is even more suspicious, and I'm awaiting clarification from Feduol on this point...

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby Carolus » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:08 pm

I think your case is pretty strong for Roger not necessarily being the author of the compilation here - there's scant evidence he was. The involvement of Mortier raises questions so its not at all impossible that Roger's activities were confined to engraving and printing here. This does not preclude Roger being the author of other collections though. I think the case is pretty weak for any editorship (as used in English) on Roger's part for this collection too. However, the title page of the collection VI Suittes, which clearly states they were "Choises & Mises en ordre par Estienne Roger" is another matter altogether. Here Roger is clearly the one who assembled the collection, and I suppose he would also be the editor along with being the engraver.

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Re: Estienne Roger

Postby VictorEijkhout » Sun May 24, 2015 5:00 am

Davydov wrote:So, in summary, there are two options, depending on the number of files involved:
1) If there are to be fewer than 100 arrangements, group the individual files by SATB , SATB (etc.)
2) If there are likely to be more, merge the individual PDF files to create larger files, according to how the pieces are scored.


I don't know if anyone noticed, but my contributions to this collection ceased a while ago. Yet I didn't stop arranging.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/78 ... easant-son

Now that that is funded, I promise to deliver at least a good 200 arrangements. While I can obviously bundle them into larger pdf files, the sound files are taking up a lot of space on that page. Especially since both I and my friend Tetsuya Muto are each recording them.

Maybe sort the tunes by the volume in which they appeared, which will probably come to about 20 tunes per volume and therefore per page?

Victor.


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