Cantata BWV 8 Johann Sebastian Bach

[Vittorio]

I hope this is the right place for this.
I would notify an error in the title of this cantata on IMSLP: the right title is "Liebster Gott, WANN werd' ich sterben" (and not "..., WENN..."), as it is grammatically correct and written on the score.
I noticed that this error is very widespread, also in Wikipedia. The origin would be the page on IMSLP?

[steltz]

Both spellings mean "when", and I am assuming that whoever made the work page was accessing a scholarly source such as Grove Music, that does give the title as "wenn". Possibly the "wann" version is specific to the Hauptmann edition. Since we don't have a scan of the autograph manuscript, I don't suppose we can find out what was on that.

Does anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[Davydov]

BWV (1990 edition) has "Liebster Gott, wenn werd ich sterben".

[Vittorio]

It can't be specific of an edition. "Wann" is an interrogative adverb (the title is clearly a question: "Wann werd' ich sterben?"), "wenn" can't stay in a question.

[Davydov]

If you want to take that up with the editors of the BWV then feel free, but as it's the authoritative source concerning Bach's works then we're not going to argue with them

[Notenschreiber]

There is source with Bachs autograph of the sopran voice, see http://www.bach-digital.de. He writes "wenn". The question he arises is at length:
What will happen, when I die. He don´t ask for the time of his death ("wann"). The use of the vocabular "wenn" is antiquated and poetic colored.

[Vittorio]

The use of the vocabular "wenn" is antiquated and poetic colored.

Ok, so it's cleared, thanks.

The question he arises is at length: What will happen, when I die. He don´t ask for the time of his death ("wann").

Sure? Further the text refers on the shortness of the life (Meine Zeit läuft immer hin..., Dass sie eine kleine Weil [...] sein auf Erden...), and to me the sense seems to be how long will I live, since the life so short is? ("wenn werd' ich sterben?" = "Wie lange werde ich leben?"), and so he asks when ("wann") will he die. But it is my interpretation.

Perhaps Hauptmann did the same reasoning and changed "wenn" to "wann"? It is strange, if the manuscript reports clearly "wenn". Or maybe he had the original manuscript (now I think it's lost, Bach Digital has a second later version in D major) which had "wann"...

[steltz]

Having had to read old texts in Dutch, some dating back to the 1600s, I can definitely say that the approach to grammar and spelling was not as specific in the 1600s and 1700s as it is today. I've seen documents where a person writes his name with two different spellings in the same document. I don't think modern rules can always be applied.

[Notenschreiber]

You are right, I withdraw my interpretation of "wenn".
There are some remarks concering our problem on the Bach Cantatas Website (http://www.bach-cantatas.com).
If you click on choral melody, you find the following footnote:

„wenn“ is a dialect form (in Thuringia and a few other regions in Bach’s time) of standard German “wann” – it appears in the original CT and CM and in Bach’s treatment of this melody.
(CT means Choral Text (by Caspar Neumann, c.1690) and CM Choral Melody).

Another remark from the above site:

Note: the NBA gives a modernized text version with “wann” instead of “wenn”, but the NBA KB III/2.1 shows that in Schemelli’s original printed form a “wenn” and not a modern “wann” appeared.

I found the NBA title with "wenn" somewhere in the www.

Additionally there is a discussion about "wenn" or "wann" at http://www.bach-cantatas.com

[Vittorio]

The use of the vocabular "wenn" is antiquated and poetic colored.

Ok, so it's cleared, thanks.

I'm sorry , I wanted to write clarified, not cleared (English isn't my best, I prefer other languages)...

„wenn“ is a dialect form (in Thuringia and a few other regions in Bach’s time) of standard German “wann”

Perfect, so it is finally clarified.

Thanks to you all.

[vilsago1]

Hi! There are also other relevant resources such as the Lutheran church year, database of chorale texts & melodies and their authors, compehensive discographies of several Bach's instrumental works (solo keyboard, lute, Art of Fugue, Musical Offering, etc.) and piano transcriptions and their performers, reviews and discussions of Bach’s instrumental works, books and movies on Bach, terms and abbreviations, schedule of concerts of Bach's vocal works, Bach Festivals & Cantata Series, guide to Bach tour, Bach in arts and memorabilia, thousands of links to other relevant resources.