Request for Comments: Deprecation of MUS and SIB files

[imslp]

Recently (to be precise, 1 hour ago) I squashed a bug related to Mediawiki not allowing MUS/SIB files because it has never heard of them (essentially), even though I allowed them in the configs.

Now that got me thinking: do we really need to allow MUS/SIB files? PDF seems to be doing fine, and MUS/SIB files are a pain to view/print if one doesn't have Finale or Sibelius. If someone wants to include typesetting source code, he/she can just attach the source file to the PDF file. Everything seems simpler if all files on IMSLP are PDF files.

And so I'm thinking of disallowing MUS/SIB altogether (won't affect existing files of course). Comments? The next maintenance is this upcoming Saturday or Sunday, so if we reach an agreement by then I can zap them at that time.

[reinhold]

Now that got me thinking: do we really need to allow MUS/SIB files? PDF seems to be doing fine,

You are right, as long as every possible score you need is available. However, if there is e.g. only the full score available and you need the individual parts for a performance, you are totally out of luck with PDFs, while you can extract the individual parts (or otherwise edit) from the MUS/SIB scores... I had this exact problem a year or so ago with my choir and a score over at CPDL. I was so glad that the author provided the source file, otherwise we couldn't have performed that piece easily.

So, whereever possible, I'm all for archiving the source files, too.

I would say:
-) Every score SHOULD be available as PDF
-) Additional source files (.mus, .sib, MusicXML, etc) for re-typesets are encouraged, as long as a PDF is provided, too.

Cheers,
Reinhold

[perlnerd666]

To quote Falstaff: *claps* Amen

[KGill]

Yeah, it kind of could be a pain, and too complicated. I agree they should be disallowed.
In addition, maybe we could find all the ones already on there and make PDF versions (of the parts as well, if applicable). As a long-term backburner project...

[Lyle Neff]

The non-PDFs (.mus, .sib) should somehow be clearly set off and marked on the links. I go to IMSLP for PDFs and do not want to click on a link that could easily be confused with the traditional PDF kind of access.

Also, for me a Finale file made on a version after Finale 2006 will do me no good anyway, because I wouldn't be able to open it.

[perlnerd666]

Ahem...there is a PDF or MUS or SIB or ZIP link to IMSLP:File Formats next to each file.

[imslp]

Lets try this again. I've set up a poll because that'd be easier. If it landslides one way or the other, I'll do whatever it landslides to.

Response to reinhold: Well, if the submitter really wants to include source files, he/she can attach them to the PDF file, though admittedly additional software will be needed.

My other motivation is that I do not want people just randomly uploading some typeset they did in MUS and SIB without providing PDFs (in fact, I don't think having both is common practice, though I may be wrong). Forcing contributors to convert them to PDF should I hope increase the overall quality, as contributors must be serious about the stuff they are uploading, instead of doing a "flyby attack" (no offense meant).

MUS and SIB files have all sorts of baggage such as version incompatibility (Finale 2009 files can only be read by Finale 2009 and above; MusicXML kills the formatting the last time I tried it, admittedly with 2006). They are also closed source and generally a pain to view easily.

I concede some of reinhold's point, that this move may have the effect of making parts harder to create, but I think it would be limited to files that:

1) Are large scores (eg. choral, orchestral, some chamber), and
2) Have no part replacements otherwise, and
3) The uploader didn't bother to attach the source file to the PDF (which, if the uploader is dedicated enough, should happen, and if the uploader is not, perhaps the edition shouldn't be used in the first place).

Another note is just that CPDL actually allows MUS and SIB files (I think), so if you can't find the source file there, it won't make much difference on IMSLP with MUS and SIB deprecated.

[horndude77]

As mentioned ideally the source should attached to the pdf. It can be done relatively easily:

Code: Select all

pdftk music.pdf attach_files <source> output music_with_source.pdf

Perhaps we could add some instructions and suggest this more prominently. Or do this upon upload with another field for source to make it as easy as possible for the submitter.

[reinhold]

As mentioned ideally the source should attached to the pdf.

I don't think that's a good idea, as my tests show that the .mus source is about the same size as the PDF, and a MusicXML file is much larger.
Attaching the source directly to the pdf forces everyone to download more than twice as much than actually needed. It also doesn't make it clear prior to downloading which scores have their source attached and which don't. For all these reasons, I still think that a PDF should be required, but source files should be allowed in addition to the PDF (in the same download box on the work page).

Cheers,
Reinhold

[Yagan Kiely]

I see absolutely no point in having these files.

[noqu]

I would argue for PDF as mandatory format, and source formats as optional add-ons.

Access to source files (MUS, XML, whatever) adds a great deal of freedom that we should not discard lightly. Transposing parts, correcting mistakes, just the freedom to do with the music what you want to do is an important quality. As a clarinetist, I frequently struggle with transposition from A to Bb, and I believe there are many chamber pieces that people might prefer to transpose into the typical key or clef for their instrument. Throwing away the sources (in the rare cases where we have them) seems like a bad move in my eyes. The analogy to Open Source Software comes to mind here.

On the other hand, I absolutely agree that the average IMSLP user wants a PDF, so I am with you in making sure that we have a PDF version of everything. If you setup a project to PDF-ify MUS files where we only have sources, I would offer my help.

I don't think that embedding the source in a PDF is a good solution. Makes it very hard for the contributor (few people even know that embedding is possible, let alone know how to do it). Bloats the download even for those who don't want it. I think the obvious solution would be to keep both PDF and source format (if available) on IMSLP besides each other. If it is possible to somehow keep them together and link them (to avoid confusion), even better.

[Yagan Kiely]

What about Noteworthy Composer format? Why should we exclude the lesser known formats also? We should include ALL formats…… It's here where it gets very messy.

[noqu]

Can't see the mess in having PDF plus one (optional) source file.

I don't argue for including the whole multitude of MUS, SIB, XML, etc for each and every file - all I say is that if somebody retypesets a work, I would like to give them a chance to make their source format available in addition to PDF.

If that person happens to have used "Noteworthy but totally unknown Composer" for a typeset, OK, bad luck for anybody who wants to work with the source later. But is that a good reason to throw away all sources ?

[daphnis]

PDF mandatory, SIB/MUS optional but only in addition to PDF output, and there attached to the generated PDF.

[Lyle Neff]

As someone with just dial-up speed at home, I would not want to download a PDF file with source files embedded or otherwise attached. Link those source files completely separately.