opinions?-sonata(piano w/1 inst) vs sonata (other) vs trio

[steltz]

A quick one that we can clean up a bit, or discuss tweaking the genre.

At the moment, some Baroque sonatas for 1 instrument and continuo are classified as trios, because of the involvement of cello. Others are Sonata (piano with 1 instrument), and even others are Sonata (other).

I don't like the Trio designation, because the harpsichord and cello function as one instrument. These are, in concept and reality, not trios, even though 3 people are involved.

I'm also not that happy with Sonata (other), because unless you see the whole hierarchy tree, the word "other" is meaningless.

However, strictly speaking, they don't belong with "Sonata (piano with 1 instrument)" either because mostly these would be played with harpsichord.

At the very least, they should all be under one designation for consistency. But, since in concept, these are pieces for a solo instrument and accompaniment, what do people think about "Sonata (piano or continuo with 1 instrument)".

This seems to solve the problem of where these fit.

[Carolus]

That's one of the reasons music librarians have used the term "Trio Sonata" as its own little world. The basso could theoretically be played by not only the cello and harpsichord (or other keyboard), but also bass (violone), lute, harp, etc. Thus the 'trio' for 2 violins and basso could actually involve anywhere from 4 to 6 or 7 performers, but often remains performable by even 3. Flexible ensemble is more like it. Those old guys were prepared for any contingency!

[steltz]

Yes, but do you have an opinion on where to put them, or how to word a genre so that they all end up together in one place (since they are all 1 inst + accompaniment? Currently they are in 3, and "trio sonata" doesn't work for these anyway, since a trio sonata has 2 soloists. The confusion is with the single soloist sonatas . . . . .

[Carolus]

One way of looking at it would be as a sonata for solo with accompaniment (e.g. Violin solo and Continuo) where the accompaniment can be anywhere from a single keyboard instrument to keyboard plus other instruments used as part of the continuo. That way, you would have duo sonatas (1 solo + accompaniment), trio sonatas (2 soli + accompaniment), quartet sonatas, and so on. I suppose the term solo sonata would then be relegated to only unaccompanied solos. This gets a little confusing as one commonly sees the term solo sonata used for something like a sonata for violin and piano, while the nearly obsolete term duo-sonata refers to the minimum number of players required to perform the work, just as the more commonly encountered trio sonata does.

[Lyle Neff]

This is exactly the problem of trying to force a type of piece into the mould of performing forces, or vice versa. There will invariably be conflicts.

Why not just use the term "sonata" and leave the instrumentation to the instrumentation field?

[kalliwoda]

I think the easiest way is to devise categories that are obvious to the music enthusiast and to the musicologist as well.

To help assigning pieces to a subgenre in the existing system, a little note at the top, that for classification purposes a basso continuo should be treated like a single instrument would suffice.

Pieces with a basso continuo (baroque or modern in a baroque style) should actually have a separate subgenre from the classical and romantic works with a piano (that is often in soloistic role). After all a Brahms piano trio/quartet is a very different beast then a Telemann triosonata or a Janitsch quartet sonata
There are obviously pieces from the turn of the 18th to the 19th century that straddle both (Devienne and Wiederkehr oboe sonatas come to my mind), but that can be dealt with in the comments.

Another issue that is a bit contentious in the genre discussion has been the term "concertante", and I notice that even "steltz" always explains that it is to be used for "soloist(s) with orchestra" - my suggestion: just use the latter for classification, its obviously more wordy, but everybody would understand immediately what it is about.