Mass Length

[Saint]

I understand as a Catholic that the length of a mass is most probably 1 hour. Can someone tell me why some masses like the KV427 by Mozart, Missa Solemnis by Beethoven, Schubert Mass in A Flat and many more are too long?

Cheers
Saint

[reinhold]

Some of those overlong masses are not really intended for ordinary church service. Special services, like the ordination of a bishop, the coronation of a new king or emperor, or the ordination of a church typically take longer than one hour, and the music for such occasions typically is also far more solemn and way longer than for normal Sunday service.

For example, Rossini's Petite Messe Solennelle was originally written for the dedication of a private chapel. But even the first performance of the later orchestral version of it was already done in a concert (three months after Rossini's death)rather than a service.

Also, Beethoven's Missa Solemnis was originally intended for the ordination of archduke Rudolph as Prince-bishop of Olmütz, but since it took Beethoven way too long to write his masterpiece, it was first performed already as a concert in Saint Petersburg and a month later in the State Opera in Vienna (called Kärntnertortheater at that time).

Mozarts Great Mass KV 427 was never finished, and large parts have been used by Mozart for his oratorio "Davidde penitente", since he had only a very short time frame for that oratoria. So, it's hard to tell Mozarts intention with that mass.

Bach's B minor mass, is even less clear. It's not even known if Bach intended it for Lutheran service or for Roman-Catholic service (it can be used for both equally well). Apparently, the first versions of the mass were not so large, but it was later extended. Again, it's not clear when exactly that happened and for what reasons.


On the other hand, there are some very short masses, because e.g. the Prince-bishop of Salzburg wanted the service to last for 45 minutes at most -- including the mass sung by the choir. Mozart suffered a lot from this, and Michael Haydn wrote some very short masses, too. The shortest that I know is the Missa brevissima by Johann Ernst Eberlin, who was also in Salzburg at the same time as Leopold Mozart. That mass has 27 + 32 + 49 + 17 + 21 + 26 = 172 measures in total (for comparison: Moart's offertory "Benedictus sit Deus" already has 188 measures!).

[pml]

The “Great Catholic Mass” of JS Bach is clearly not intended for the Catholic rite, especially as the words of the Sanctus clearly follow the Lutheran rather than the Roman formula. The facts of the matter seem to be that the finished work was compiled in the 1740s drawing on a huge number of previous borrowings (many of which seem to be lost):

I. In 1733, Bach had approached the Elector of Dresden for a title in the court chapel with a setting of the Lutheran Missa, namely Kyrie and Gloria, in order to gain traction in his ongoing battles with the Leipzig authorities. (Note that Bach’s other four “mass” settings BWV 233-236 are just the movements of the Lutheran Missa, i.e. Kyrie and Gloria only.)
II. The Symbolum Nicenum seems to have been compiled from a variety of pre-existing movements, some of which are related to the Creed (e.g. as the opening section quotes one of the Gregorian intonations). Only the Confiteor appears to be newly composed.
III. The Sanctus (without Osanna, and with the words “gloria ejus” instead of “gloria tua” immediately preceding where the “Osanna” would follow on) had already been composed for Christmas 1724, and is the best of his several settings of the text.
IV. This left JSB with four sections to fill in, again with pre-existing choruses or arias (and the re-use of the Gratias as Dona nobis pacem).

In this respect the Mass resembles several other of Bach’s late projects such as the Art of Fugue, or the Musical Offering, which Bach seems to have compiled following his own artistic needs, rather than having to consider the practicality of performance.

Interestingly, most of Mozart’s settings are prior to the reign of Emperor Joseph II, who officially criticised elaborate music in church services; this is partly why there is a significant gap in church composition in the œuvres of both Joseph Haydn and Mozart. Mozart, of course, did not outlive Joseph significantly, so that only a few settings of the Kyrie (most incomplete) date from the 1780s, and neither the 1783 Mass nor the 1791 Requiem were completed; Haydn wrote his final six Esterhazy masses in the mid 1790s to early 1800s, and wonderful works they are, though they are also rather long for ecclesiastical use, mostly being about three-quarters of an hour in duration. Mozart’s 1783 setting of the “great” mass was actually planned as a nuptial thanksgiving after his marriage to Constanze née Weber, though the circumstances of its first performance in Salzburg seem to indicate that the usual restriction on the length of the musical offering was relaxed for the prodigal son to perform it .

Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg was known to have discouraged composers from writing masses with more than 20 to 25 minutes duration, because he didn't want the entire liturgy to occupy longer than an hour and a half, so most (but not all) of Mozart’s Salzburg masses are of the brevis variety; despite this, he never adopted the brothers Haydn’s rather naughty trick of telescoping the long texts of the Gloria and Credo, where each section of the choir sings a different portion of the text...

PML

[Saint]

Thanks for the great comment. In fact I really want to conduct these masses in our normal Sunday services because I really like the great harmonious sound in these compositions. However, due to the time limit of service, these masses is too long to conduct but I still never thought of quitting from conducting of these masses in our cathedral. Do I have the right to reject any parts in these masses to make it short? Your answer is very much appreciate.

Cheers
Saint

[pml]

It is actually quite customary to dispense with movements of masses to meet with liturgical propriety for length or other musical reasons; for example, classical period masses often have very elongated settings of the Benedictus, set as florid solo items, as compared to the Sanctus: so these might be omitted, or placed elsewhere in the service where the duration is not a problem, e.g. such a long Benedictus might be sung during the distribution of communion, where normally a motet or antiphon might be sung. In some churches the congregation always sings the Credo for instance, which rules out the choir singing polyphonic or orchestral settings of that portion of the mass.

Likewise for the requiem mass sung on the feast of All Souls, as this liturgy doesn’t include the burial service, whereas requiem settings often do, it’s possible to sing one or other of the extraneous movements as a communion motet (e.g. Libera me, or In paradisum, if these requiem settings include them).

Believe it or not, I have actually sung in a liturgical performance of the Bach B minor mass; to do this without having a three-hour-long service, the Lutheran church of St John’s Southgate Melbourne break the Mass up into three or four pieces to perform it across three or four different Sundays, as for example the three movements of the Kyrie by itself (twenty minutes); likewise the Gloria (a bit over half an hour); Symbolum Nicenum (half an hour); Sanctus+Benedictus+Agnus Dei (twenty-five minutes). This usually means that the service can accomodate a musical setting about the length of a middle-sized mass or cantata (say, 30 minutes).

Basically, the music should be there to serve the liturgy, and the argument for including longer settings of the mass (in part, or in toto) should be whether in view of the clergy that it serves that purpose, or is a musical distraction.

Regards, PML

[Lyle Neff]

Another idea is to use different movements from different masses -- even by different composers.

[Saint]

Thank you guys..