Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

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vinteuil
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby vinteuil » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:38 am

The most lyrical composers (Schubert, Schumann, Faure, even Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Liszt, and Boulez) can be best understood through their songs...you're a pianist, so you might enjoy the Liszt transcriptions (try out his arrangement of Chopin's My Joys for starters)
Faure, Schumann, and Schubert all wrote excellent piano music, and OK orchestral music, but their songs reveal the truly vocal and lyric aspect of their technique. No Schumann piano pieces have the lyricism of Dichterliebe or Frauenliebe und -Leben, just as no Schubert has the lyricism of Schwanengesang, or Faure of La Bonne Chanson, L'Horizon Chimerique, or Dans les ruines d'une abbaye. Even Liszt's songs are very much in need of listening.
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby pianogirl23 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:04 pm

Thanks perlnerd666
i'll keep those in mind since i've got some big competitions coming up :)
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby Huilunsoittaja » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Overrated: STRAVINSKY. Just because you're new doesn't mean you're improved. ;)

Rossini and Tchaikovsky are WAY overused.

Mahler is beginning to be overdone, not on the radio, but in Concert halls. Same with Shostakovich.

Well, I joined this forum to stand up for something, and hopefully I'll be supported. Glazunov is classical music's best kept secret. Remember I coined that term! He was actually rated higher than Schoenberg in a recent poll that asked perhaps thousands of people. How about that for a comeback?
"Criticism is prejudice made plausible". - H. L. Mencken

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby Melodia » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:49 am

Huilunsoittaja wrote:Mahler is beginning to be overdone, not on the radio


Only because all his symphonies are so damn long.

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby vinteuil » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:25 pm

Huilunsoittaja wrote:Overrated: STRAVINSKY. Just because you're new doesn't mean you're improved. ;)

Rossini and Tchaikovsky are WAY overused.

Mahler is beginning to be overdone, not on the radio, but in Concert halls. Same with Shostakovich.

Well, I joined this forum to stand up for something, and hopefully I'll be supported. Glazunov is classical music's best kept secret. Remember I coined that term! He was actually rated higher than Schoenberg in a recent poll that asked perhaps thousands of people. How about that for a comeback?

OK
Stravinsky: the overdone things are GOOD PIECES (the russian ballets and Symphony of Psalms). Unfortunately some of the really good stuff (Agon, Mass, the Flood, Symphony of Winds) lies in quasi or near total neglect.

Mahler has been overdone since the 1960s
Shostakovich is overdone in the same way as Stravinsky: only like 2 pieces, and Symphonies 4, 15, 9, 1, etc. aren't performed enough.

<flame>I HATE Glazunov. It's watery, unoriginal, mechanical, and wholly sterile (the Violin concerto is OK, I suppose)

And the comparison is hardly worth making with Schoenberg. Similarly, a poll of librarians (no offence, carolus!) found that, of all things, To Kill a Mockingbird was considered the best novel of the 20th century. Instead of Dr. Faustus, The Trial, A La recherche de temps perdu...
the point is that polls can be worthless</flame
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby Huilunsoittaja » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:28 pm

[quote="perlnerd666" <flame>I HATE Glazunov. It's watery, unoriginal, mechanical, and wholly sterile (the Violin concerto is OK, I suppose)[/quote]

Au contraire! I see more than you do, much more. But it's no use talking about it.
"Criticism is prejudice made plausible". - H. L. Mencken

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby vinteuil » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:54 pm

I'm open to talk...with Mahler, I listened to his entire oeuvre to try to find one piece that i liked (failed)...haven't done that with Glazunov...much longer :)
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby Huilunsoittaja » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:06 am

perlnerd666 wrote:I'm open to talk...


Good place to start. :)

As for me, I have listened to almost his entire oeuvre, except for chamber music and some piano pieces. But it's hard to explain why I like Glazunov so much except I like his attitude toward his subject. Perhaps it's because I lacked prejudice to begin with (I ran into him by accident through the radio, and thought he was just a normal composer, which I still stand for). Or maybe when I learned how to understand his music by accident while listening to his stuff many times (that's the key).

But besides all that, I think it's because of his mindset. He believed in musical ideals, and believed music must be 2 things: beautiful, and self-sufficient (fully-satisfying). Something can be "innovative," but if it doesn't follow those priorities, I have trouble liking it.

Symphonies 4 and 5, the Seasons, Lyric Poem, and the Suite "From the Middle Ages" are some great works, just to name a few. :)
"Criticism is prejudice made plausible". - H. L. Mencken

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby dwil9798 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:50 pm

The only piece by Mahler that I find overdone is his First Symphony, which is programmed by nearly every orchestra. I don't find it satisfying to listen to, and I feel it is one of his least inspired works. His Seventh and Adagio from No. 10 I find are not played enough, and they really are fantastic works.

perlnerd666 wrote:And the comparison is hardly worth making with Schoenberg.


Could not agree with you more on this one. In my opinion, Schoenberg was a far better composer than Glazunov, even though his compositions can be less accessible. I get especially angry when people say that atonal and serial composers' music contains no emotion compared to more traditional composers. Listen to Dallapiccola, B. A. Zimmerman, and to Hartmann. If you find no emotion in their music you must be completely ignorant.

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby vinteuil » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:49 am

Listened to From the Middle Ages; it was nice...but not Schoenberg's Op. 47 :)
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby yojimboken » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:21 pm

Underrated: Charles Villiers Stanford, EJ Moeran, Gade, Stenhammar

Underperformed: Piano Trio Op 17 by Paul Juon, Vincent D'Indy's string quartets, Jean Cras' chamber music

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby dr927 » Tue May 25, 2010 5:04 am

dwil9798 wrote:The only piece by Mahler that I find overdone is his First Symphony, which is programmed by nearly every orchestra. I don't find it satisfying to listen to, and I feel it is one of his least inspired works. His Seventh and Adagio from No. 10 I find are not played enough, and they really are fantastic works.

perlnerd666 wrote:And the comparison is hardly worth making with Schoenberg.


Could not agree with you more on this one. In my opinion, Schoenberg was a far better composer than Glazunov, even though his compositions can be less accessible. I get especially angry when people say that atonal and serial composers' music contains no emotion compared to more traditional composers. Listen to Dallapiccola, B. A. Zimmerman, and to Hartmann. If you find no emotion in their music you must be completely ignorant.


I don't believe Mahler's First Symphony is overdone at all. It is probably played most often because it is the most straight-forward of all his works, which does not say very much because it is quite a difficult piece to pull off.

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby Melodia » Tue May 25, 2010 5:45 am

It's also shroter than most of em -- or all of em? And needs no chorus either.

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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby Lyle Neff » Tue May 25, 2010 11:25 am

"played most often" means "overdone."

Not just Mahler No. 1, but also Schubert's "Great," Stravinsky's Firebird, Petrushka, and Rite of Spring, Orff's Carmina Burana, and Mozart's/Verdi's/Faure's Requiems. :mrgreen:
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Re: Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

Postby dwil9798 » Tue May 25, 2010 9:46 pm

I don't often mind music being overdone if they're honestly very good pieces. For instance, Tchaikovsky's final three symphonies (especially the Fifth) are programmed by nearly every orchestra each year, but they are actually great pieces and I don't mind listening to them over and over. In my opinion, Mahler's First is the least refined (bare with me on that one) and least interesting/most boring of all his symphonies.

I wish orchestras would challenge their audience more. Even though I don't particularly like him as a conductor, Alan Gilbert has the right idea and is really challenging the conservative New Yorkers. I hear "Le Grand Macabre" is going to be pretty sweet this weekend.


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