Hi there,
I have a couple of questions about the interpreting the timp part from Tchaik 2 (the part can be viewed at http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/e ... mpPerc.pdf. I realise that these questions may be quite subjective, but any help/opinions appreciated:
1) Final movement - 4th bar. Should this be played as a full crotchet or should it be shorter. I've wanted to play this as a full length crotchet, damping after this length, but the orchetra has been cutting off before this full length, so I've been damping earlier (almost like a shot note). I've heard pro orchestras play it both ways and prefer hearing the full length crotchet. Obviously I'm going to need to play the same as the orchestra and I've assumed I'm not meant to be hanging on after they've stopped, but how would you interpret this if you could choose? Perhaps I should stop my roll a bit earlier to give the final note it full length...
2) Final movement - bar 24. I heard this played by some orchestra on utube as a singer (loud accented note) and really didn't like it... I think I even decided it was just a dodgy timpanist for a while! I then heard another couple of versions from pro orchestra (can't remember which) and it's played without the stinger and I much prefer this. However, I've just listened to a version by the LPO and it also has a large accent on the end, so am now confused. It's not written as accented, but is seperated (as are each of the notes in the 7 bars before it). The way it sounds good to me, although it's not written this way, is to put a very slight crescendo into the last couple of bars of roll and intensify the roll by speeding it up a little without putting a stinger on the end. What are people's thoughts on this?
3) this leads to more of a general question. I'm pretty new to the orchestral world and have mainly learned to play timps in brass bands where you basically play what's written. As I understand it, there is a decent amount of interpretation required for the orchestral timpani repertoire because notation and playing knowledge/technique has evolved throughout the years. So, I've been reading about how to interpret Tchaikovsky's timp parts and have read that he used different notations for rolls depending on the tempo of the music. Given this, I'm playing the 'demi-semiquaver notation' at the start of the 4th movement as a roll, likewise I'm playing the 'semiquaver notation' 7 after D as a roll, and I'm playing the 'quaver notation' from Q onwards as a roll. So:
i) Am I right in playing these as rolls rather than articulating them as semi-quavers and quavers (etc)?
ii) if playing them as rolls, should the they be exatly measured to contain the correct number of demis/semis/quaver notes?
iii) I've heard a version by the LPO where the timpanist really slows down the sticking in the last bar or so as if he were playing the exact articulated quaver measurements with a rall/rit quickly happening in the last bar or so. This has kind of made me think that the rolls should be exact measures rather than a roll. I want to play it as a roll all the way though that doesn't slow up and that perhaps doesn't have the exact measures being played. What do people think about this?
Cheers.
Matt
Timp part - Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 2
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Re: Timp part - Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 2
Hi Matt,
welcome to IMSLP. Some of these questions are best answered in relation to the rest of the orchestra, so I pulled out the full scores rather than the grabbing the timp. part.
1) Moderato, 4th and 8th bars: you cut off with the orchestra. Basically, everyone else but you is holding their notes from the start of 3 and 7, so your crotchet is there to signify you have a finishing note for your roll to play on the conductor’s downbeat, and that presumably is where s/he will also cut off the rest of the orchestra: the overhang is not long, about a quaver. There’s no lingering around for you!
2) After 4 bars of timpani roll on the low G, you’ve got to give the crotchet in bar 24 something, otherwise it sounds like the drumroll has merely fizzled out and there’s no sense of expectation for the Allegro vivo that follows. Maybe not a “stinger”, but a definite and emphatic end to the roll, yes. Remember the timp is solo from 20 onwards apart from the single ff chord on 22, so 24 is also a strong beat.
3) Unmeasured rolls versus measured rolls. Yes, notation has certainly evolved from the days when a trill was just the letter “t” above a note (and sometime later this became “tr” with the wavy line). However, the question of the measurement of tremelo for timps was beginning to be set down precisely at the outset of the 19th century, and someone like Tchaikovsky was up-to-date with instrumental technique, not lagging behind. The semiquaver notation in the Allegro vivo (before and after D) is precisely measured (upper strings are also playing tremelo this precise rhythm). The quaver tremelos in the 1 in a bar Presto after Q are again precisely measured – it really should go that fast! In the last six bars the timpani is exposed as a solo (rather like how it was the only contributor back in bars 20 to 24) and most recordings I’ve heard you can clearly hear the player giving out the quavers (4 to a bar) – even if the conductor is doing a little ritenuto in the third-last bar. I think the only place where the timpanist has the luxury of determining his or her own speed of the drum roll is the very beginning of the movement, up to bar 24 – and even there it ought to be possible for the player to measure demi-semis.
So your sub-questions:
i) Only if the rolls are the right speed. The semi-quavers and quavers don’t need to be articulated, but if a pulsation is audible then it must be the correctly measured one (semi- or quaver), or else there would arise the perception that there is a different metre being played by different instruments.
ii) Yes.
iii) Third-last bar, I think you mean. What you describe by the LPO is how I’ve normally heard it done. If you want to do it your way – which would certainly bring out the similarity with bars 20 to 24 – be prepared to have the conductor ask you to do it their way!
Cheers, Philip
welcome to IMSLP. Some of these questions are best answered in relation to the rest of the orchestra, so I pulled out the full scores rather than the grabbing the timp. part.
1) Moderato, 4th and 8th bars: you cut off with the orchestra. Basically, everyone else but you is holding their notes from the start of 3 and 7, so your crotchet is there to signify you have a finishing note for your roll to play on the conductor’s downbeat, and that presumably is where s/he will also cut off the rest of the orchestra: the overhang is not long, about a quaver. There’s no lingering around for you!
2) After 4 bars of timpani roll on the low G, you’ve got to give the crotchet in bar 24 something, otherwise it sounds like the drumroll has merely fizzled out and there’s no sense of expectation for the Allegro vivo that follows. Maybe not a “stinger”, but a definite and emphatic end to the roll, yes. Remember the timp is solo from 20 onwards apart from the single ff chord on 22, so 24 is also a strong beat.
3) Unmeasured rolls versus measured rolls. Yes, notation has certainly evolved from the days when a trill was just the letter “t” above a note (and sometime later this became “tr” with the wavy line). However, the question of the measurement of tremelo for timps was beginning to be set down precisely at the outset of the 19th century, and someone like Tchaikovsky was up-to-date with instrumental technique, not lagging behind. The semiquaver notation in the Allegro vivo (before and after D) is precisely measured (upper strings are also playing tremelo this precise rhythm). The quaver tremelos in the 1 in a bar Presto after Q are again precisely measured – it really should go that fast! In the last six bars the timpani is exposed as a solo (rather like how it was the only contributor back in bars 20 to 24) and most recordings I’ve heard you can clearly hear the player giving out the quavers (4 to a bar) – even if the conductor is doing a little ritenuto in the third-last bar. I think the only place where the timpanist has the luxury of determining his or her own speed of the drum roll is the very beginning of the movement, up to bar 24 – and even there it ought to be possible for the player to measure demi-semis.
So your sub-questions:
i) Only if the rolls are the right speed. The semi-quavers and quavers don’t need to be articulated, but if a pulsation is audible then it must be the correctly measured one (semi- or quaver), or else there would arise the perception that there is a different metre being played by different instruments.
ii) Yes.
iii) Third-last bar, I think you mean. What you describe by the LPO is how I’ve normally heard it done. If you want to do it your way – which would certainly bring out the similarity with bars 20 to 24 – be prepared to have the conductor ask you to do it their way!
Cheers, Philip