about trascriptions copyright

[carmar1791]

Sorry I'm a newbie
Is there someone that can answer at these questions or can tell me where can I find a response ?
1)If I tascribe a piece in an other key , and the piece is now printed and under copyright (it is a Bach concert edited by Barenreiter),can I consider that piece (realization & copyright) mine?
2)And Generally how many bars in a piece have I to add to consider that piece mine?(In Italy I'm not sure but I have heard more than 4).
Thank you in advance

[daphnis]

These questions you're asking are impossible to answer one way or the other with the little information you've provided.
1.) Are you saying there is a Bach concerto edited by a certain individual and published by Barenreiter that you'd like to transpose to a different key and consider it a new copyright? Most likely (and unless something is very awry) and understandably you cannot claim a copyright in this situation because you've not effected the piece in any substantial way, only adjusted the pitches by the same amount. This would be like me taking a Chevrolet Impala, putting over-sized tires on it and calling it a new vehicle. It just doesn't work like that.
2.) Are you saying you'd like to take an existing work under copyright, add a certain number of measures to it and call it your own? You would NEVER be able to call a work your own by doing this. At least it would be a co-author/composer situation much like many attempts in the past at finishing Schubert's Unfinished symphony or another incomplete work. In these cases it never becomes a work under the finisher's name but rather as a contributor.

Maybe Carolus will back me up on this, but if my suppositions are correct these would be the results.

[imslp]

I think Daphnis hit the nail on the head. The only thing I would add is that as far as I know, there are no set number of measures that allow you to claim copyright. I know that at least in the US this has to be decided by the jury, unless it is absolutely obvious (main theme or something). Sometimes copying even 10+ bars doesn't constitute copyright infringement if the defendant can show that 1. it is insignificant, or 2. it is common in the literature (prior art). Usually this would be the case for accompaniment chord patterns (and there have been several cases about this).

[carmar1791]

Thank you for the answer.
Now I'll be more precise.
I Trascribed a Bach Concert for solo instrument and orchestra.
The concert is edited by Barenraiter too.
All orchestral parts are the same of the Bach Geselshaft so there are no problems about coping them.
The solo part is mine because I changed pitch ,texture (octave),slurs.
The problem is the piano reduction and the realization of the basso continuo,because I only changed pitch of the barenraiter edition.What have to change to claim mine that realizations?

For all about my 2nd question I can tell you that Berio (in Italy) orchestrated Brhams Op.120 No.1 and to claim that composition an his composition (only from a legal point of view),he add some bars.(so He had more money from copyrigth execution because it was not only an arrangement but legaly an his composition)
In the same way in Italy if a rapper sings over a my piece of music adding words or a little bit different accompainment I loose my copyrigth on that piece.Is not the same in USA?
Thank you
greetings
Carmar

[daphnis]

1.) Still not enough information. You say you "transcribed" a Bach concert for solo instrument and orchestra? You don't mean a concerto, do you? Why don't you tell us exactly which Bach piece you're talking about--that would clarify things nicely. If you're not talking about a concerto but rather a chamber work for what amounts to an orchestra, the solo part you've arranged would probably be the important matter of concern here.
And about the realization--I still am very unclear what was the original and exactly what you did to alter it. Changing "pitch" is very ambiguous. But to give you some idea of what you'd need to do in order to claim a realization as your own accompaniment, you'd need to significantly alter the original by removing chords, changing them, and/or adding a large number.
If you just wanted to realize the figured bass in a unique way, it's possible, if the realization is unique enough and provable doesn't sound like my realization (for example), you could conceivably claim copyright that, but only as a realization and not as a unique composition.

2.) I'm familiar with Berio's orchestration of this piece and an orchestration of this nature is enough for a copyright, but know he didn't create a new work; he's only the arranger of the work. But he would have been able to copyright his orchestration even if he did not add any new music (which I can't confirm as I don't know it that well), because a major re-working of something like this is evidence the original has been altered, even if just in configuration.

Re. your rapper example: If a rapper sings your work (under copyright), for a CD recording or some other financial gain, but only changes what we would consider minor details such as changing the words around or adding words, even a slightly different accompaniment, then most likely he is in breach of copyright. Remember that copyright law is not always black & white, and as Feldmahler (imslp) said in his last post, somethings go before a judge and jury to decide how much composition A sounds like composition B. The simple answer is any "small" changes to a work, irrespective of their nature, that don't significantly alter it likely cannot be considered new works for copyright.

[carmar1791]

You can find the concert I trascribed here:
https://www.baerenreiter.com/cgi-bin/ba ... xframe.htm
All my concern is about piano reduction and cembalo because I only trascribed that parts in D .
For all orchestral parts there are no problems because Those are the same of
bach cantatas,And the viola part is mine.
Thank you very much
Carmar

[carmar1791]

Ops
Link doesn't work.
But if you look for viola concerto by bach in barenreiter home page there is only the concert I'm speaking about....(recostructed from BWV 169 49 and 1053)
Greetings
Carmar

[daphnis]

BA5149 90, the Concerto for Viola and Strings in E-flat (piano reduction)? Is this what you're talking about?

[carmar1791]

yes it is

[Carolus]

OK, I'm trying to get up to speed here... The Viola piece you reference is apparently a reconstruction from fragments. It is therefore an arrangement, and would be treated the same as a new original composition under most copyright laws. You would not be free to make any other derivative version of this work without permission from the author of the reconstruction. You would of course be free to attempt your own reconstruction, however, from the original Bach fragments. That said, you are probably free to transpose the reconstruction to a different key for your own use, but it would be illegal for you to claim copyright on a transposition of someone else's recent reconstruction.

Transposing something to a different key is insufficient to qualify for a new copyright anywhere in the world. Daphnis' previous remark was quite correct. More has to be be done to even qualify for a minimal 'urtext' copyright in those countries which use such a schema.

[carmar1791]

I have just seen that the concert has been uploaded in IMSLP here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Viola_Concerto_in ... bastian%29
It is the exact copy of Barenreiter edition(copiright 1996), made by ZJTC music.
But if ZJTC music you say is pubblic domain so my transposition in D of piano part should be legal ( allowed).Isn't so?
Greetings Carmar

[Carolus]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Carmar. The work in question is evidently an arrangement for viola of the Harpsichord Concerto, BWV 1053 made by Wilfried Fischer and pulished by Baerenreiter in 1996. Do you know for certain that the ZJTC item posted here is a note-for-note reprinting of the Baerenreiter Fischer arrangement? It looks like this is a very strong possibility.

Apparently ZJTC reprinted the Baerenreiter without permission or attribution. I am not at all sure where they are located or even if they are still in business. We will be removing this item very soon.

[carmar1791]

I confirm that Bach Viola Concerto edited byZJTC is a photocopy of barenreiter edition.
And I'm not sure but I think that also Telemann Viola Concerto
( http://imslp.org/wiki/Viola_Concerto_in ... Philipp%29 )
seems to be a photocopy of barenreiter.
Thank you for all
Greetings
Carmar