Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

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easiest2remember
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Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby easiest2remember » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:16 pm

I have to admit, i'm already counting down the days! It really is a pity that the heirs of Poulenc are such mo..ns that they won't allow for many of his great but little known works to be published (lots of very cool chamber music for example). It goes so far that even some publishers are quite pissed about their restrictive behavior.

From what i understand he will be in PD in Canada (and elsewhere) starting 2014? It makes me feel very bad, but the current copyright situation makes one think: what a pity he died on the 30th of january 1963, couldn't he have died on the 31st of December 1962? so wrong, morally, but still ^^.

Im writing this because i have a question reagarding a particular piece of his: "L'invitation au chateau" - it was written as stage music for a french theatrical piece. it's set for Piano, Violin and Clarinet and very very funny, humoresque! The Piece has never been published officially but the rental music has been out there since that time. would it still be possible to publish that score in 2014 (considering it is rental)? If not: would that change if i were to write the whole thing down (digitally of course) from recordings?

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easy

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby Carolus » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:34 pm

Interesting question. Countries differ about what constitutes "publication" with regard to copyright terms. Canada wisely included a "performance or delivery" of a work along with the normal printing and selling to start the clock. This was done in order to avoid the absurdities of copyright being claimed upon the works of authors dead for hundreds of years with no traceable heirs. So, Poulenc's work will be free n Canada because it was certainly performed. Rental is generally regarded as a form of sale in most places, so having a work on rental constitutes "publication" as well.

The EU is a little more arcane about the issue, but my understanding is that this work would be considered as published there also - though there are possibly odd wrinkles in the laws of the different countries. Of course you have to wait another 20 years there (until 2034).

The USA (as usual) has become its own special circle of hell. The definition of "publication" for a work like this is unsettled. Under the law in effect from 1909-1977, "publication" was absolutely essential to start the copyright clock running. Unpublished works were protected by a perpetual common-law copyright (the root of the whole fever-swamp over sound-recordings). To publish a work removed it from the eternal ether and placed it under the statute: a 28-year term with a 28-year renewal (later extended to 47, then 67 years). There was also a doctrine called "limited publication" under which a work could actually be printed in a small quantity (undefined as to exact number) with a publisher imprint and distributed to "a limited audience" (again not really defined) and remain legally unpublished (and thus protected by perpetual copyright). A common interpretation of this rather insane doctrine is that works made available on rental were thus not actually published until the 1909 law was superceded. The passage of the 1978 law changed the definition of publication so that this interpretation is not really possible any more. Works of this nature are now commonly considered as having been published on January 1, 1978 at the very latest. (but there's more!)

Under the case law governing the definition of publication, the "offering of a work for sale or other distribution" constitutes general (not limited) publication. So, if a publisher placed an advertisement on the back cover of another piece of Poulenc's mentioning that the parts are available from the publisher, the printing of that ad published the work. Likewise with printing a catalogue with the work described as being available from the publisher. So, if you manage to find as score that can be confirmed (via a library's dated blind-stamp), or a publisher's dated catalog as having been in existence on a particular date, the work mentioned in the ad or catalog was legally published by then - all notices and claims notwithstanding.

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby Choralia » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:21 am

Carolus wrote:there are possibly odd wrinkles in the laws of the different countries

Yes, definitely. For example, in The Netherlands (where the IMSLP-EU main server is currently located) we have something like this:

A work shall be deemed to have been published within the meaning of this article when it has appeared in print with the consent of the author or, in general, when a sufficient number of copies thereof, of whatever kind, have been made available with the consent of the author, to meet the reasonable needs of the public, given the nature of the work.

The performance of a dramatic, dramatico-musical or musical work, the showing of a cinematographic work, the recitation or broadcasting in a radio or television program of a work and the exhibition of a work of art shall not be deemed a publication.

While in Italy (where the IMSLP-EU backup server is currently located) we have;

An author shall have the exclusive right to publish his work.

He shall, in addition, have the exclusive right to the economic utilization of the work in any form or manner, whether original or derivative, within the limits fixed by this Law, and especially as regards the exercise of the exclusive rights indicated in the following Articles.

The first form of exercise of the right of utilization shall be considered to be the first publication.

So, as far as I understand, performance seems not deemed as "publication" in NL, while in Italy it does (performance is definitely linked to the right of utilization).

Max

easiest2remember
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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby easiest2remember » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:18 pm

beautiful! so as long as i find a score, a catalogue or any mention of a performance of "l'invitation au chateau" that's older than 50 years i can go ahead and upload the music (which I will typeset) on the canadian IMSLP server after 2014?

i might as well get to work now, then :D, that date is approaching.

however i still dont get why we have to wait all the way to 2014, when he died in early 1963 :/

my fear is that we will (at least not in our livetimes) never see the weird copyright-laws regarding printed music or old recordings change for the better. The lobby pushing for even stronger and longer copyrights is just to strong.
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Bundesregierung-bringt-Schutzverlaengerung-fuer-Tonaufnahmen-auf-den-Weg-1740903.html- this is just one example - some crazy german politicians argue that making sure the copyright is granted for 70 years AFTER death would somehow allow for the composers and texters to make a living. I just wonder how that is, if the copyright is extended to "after death" ^^

anyways,

easy

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby haydenmuhl » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:46 pm

easiest2remember wrote:my fear is that we will (at least not in our livetimes) never see the weird copyright-laws regarding printed music or old recordings change for the better. The lobby pushing for even stronger and longer copyrights is just to strong.

I think the internet is going to change all that. When, I'm not sure, but it will. The internet has made distribution of content much easier. As more people start sharing others works and creating and distributing their own works, more people are going to start bumping into the ridiculous restrictions that exist in current copyright law. And it's not just copyright. Other forms of intellectual property, like patents, also have huge problems that need to be dealt with. Once enough people are clued in, these things will start to change.
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easiest2remember
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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby easiest2remember » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:24 pm

ok, got the rental music. copyright is set to 1948, Poulenc died in 63 so we should be fine in 2014
if not i can always retypset, the music is printed and in very good quality, i should be able to do this realtively quickly if necessary ^^

easy

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby Choralia » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:16 pm

Please be aware that, by copying the rental parts (including re-typing, which is anyway a form of copy), you might be potentially liable for:

- breaching the local copyright law, if applicable (for example, if you are located in Germany, Poulenc will be PD in 2034);

- breaching the rental agreement, if the rental agreement does not allow copying parts.

Just for the sake of comprehensiveness.

Max

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby steltz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:56 pm

I would reiterate what Choralia says -- please check your rental contract. You may be breaking the law by photocopying those scores and parts. In fact, since I have never seen a rental agreement without a "no photocopying" clause, I would almost bet money that you cannot photocopy them legally.
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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby easiest2remember » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:53 am

which i'm not doing.
however when i visit canada in 2014 and get my hands on a copy there i should be fine.

i'll check the contract as soon as i get the bill for my rental stuff. at least now i know that the copyright on the printed music was issued in '48. the german national library has a copy, however they only rent it out when one has a written consent by the publisher (for research projects, i.e.).

my take is: in 2014 it should be very very possible for someone in canada, or someone from abroad to rent one out from a canadian library (if there is a copy in vancouver, toronto or montreal).

easy

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby easiest2remember » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:56 am

Choralia wrote:- breaching the local copyright law, if applicable (for example, if you are located in Germany, Poulenc will be PD in 2034);
Max


a question of understanding: if i were to write down the music from a recording i have (i've done that b4) would i be fine?

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby Choralia » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:59 am

easiest2remember wrote:if i were to write down the music from a recording i have (i've done that b4) would i be fine?

No, I don't think it would be fine. I'm not a lawyer, but I guess that transcription of music from any source (manuscript, printed sheet music, recording, public or private performance, etc.) is just a different form of copy, and thus subject to the protection granted by copyright. In this case (Poulenc in EU) we have that Poulenc's music is under copyright, not just manuscripts, printed score editions, recordings, etc., which are just different audio/visual representations of Poulenc's music.

Max

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby haydenmuhl » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:46 am

Choralia wrote:Please be aware that, by copying the rental parts (including re-typing, which is anyway a form of copy), you might be potentially liable for:

- breaching the local copyright law, if applicable (for example, if you are located in Germany, Poulenc will be PD in 2034);

- breaching the rental agreement, if the rental agreement does not allow copying parts.

Just for the sake of comprehensiveness.

Max

If the rental is public domain, would the no copying clause in the rental agreement have any teeth?
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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby steltz » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:09 pm

Yes it does have teeth - it falls under contract law, which doesn't have to take note of whether something is public domain or not. There is no link between the two, so the contract says "if you want it from us you have to agree to not copy it".

And, by the way, those agreements usually also include not allowing other people to copy it, so even if you have a friend in Canada who has rented it, you would get him into trouble if you photocopied his rented parts -- the contract would still be breached even though he wasn't physically doing the copying himself.
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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby easiest2remember » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:41 pm

I think we all agree that the current copyright situation is beyond crazy (especially when you have people like poulencs heirs who are so incredibly restrictive that playing some of his pieces is virtually impossible), so no argument there ^^

steltz wrote:And, by the way, those agreements usually also include not allowing other people to copy it, so even if you have a friend in Canada who has rented it, you would get him into trouble if you photocopied his rented parts -- the contract would still be breached even though he wasn't physically doing the copying himself.


I wouldnt give my rental away for somebody else to copy. I'm not willing to get sued myself because somebody uploads it somehwere and - god forbid, maybe they have watermarks on the score or something so ... hell no! i was saying if you were able to get a copy from a canadian library in canada (or some other country with 50+ years) in 2014, you should be fine. If a canadian library has a copy (like the german national library) they have no reason to hold it back from you (the canadian citizen) after 2014.

Choralia wrote:No, I don't think it would be fine. I'm not a lawyer, but I guess that transcription of music from any source (manuscript, printed sheet music, recording, public or private performance, etc.) is just a different form of copy, and thus subject to the protection granted by copyright. In this case (Poulenc in EU) we have that Poulenc's music is under copyright, not just manuscripts, printed score editions, recordings, etc., which are just different audio/visual representations of Poulenc's music.

Yes, but what you're saying also means that if I - or since i might not be coming to canada in early 2014 somebody else - would be perfectly fine writing down the music from a recording (or a library version from a canadian library) in canada (50 years+). I would actually consider driving to Berlin, Munich or Frankfurt to do it in one of their Embassies ^^ :D
now another interesting question: i can upload 50 years+ stuff when i'm in canada. What if i'm in canada and living right next to the border and uploading happens through a US-Cellphone-provider. Or in the case of the canadian embassy: I myself am on canadian ground, but the upload takes place through a german mobile provider ? ^^ ;)

lots of interesting questions regarding copyright and international law :D.

easy

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Re: Poulenc will be in PD in 2014, soooooon!

Postby Choralia » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:41 pm

I agree that the subject is garbled and many odd situations may exist, very difficult to evaluate even by experts or court.

Assuming that you're a German citizen and you violate the copyright laws of Germany, the copyright holder will probably sue you in Germany. They will likely assert that you're a German citizen everywhere you are, and, if you caused a damage to somebody, you are liable for the damage according to the German laws. I don't know what the court may decide, but that's certainly a possibility. Instead, if you violate the copyright laws of another country where you're temporarily located, you will be probably sued in that country, based on the concept that you were also subject to the local laws at that point in time.

So, if you want to minimse your risks, you should always consider the laws of your country of citizenship (or of residence), and those of the country that you may be visiting.

This is, more or less, what IMSLP is doing: obey both the copyright laws of U.S.A. (where IMSLP is incorporated - some kind of citizenship for a company) and those of Canada (where the main server is located - some kind of visited country for a provider of contents via web).

Max


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