The End of "Genres"

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Davydov
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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Davydov » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:41 pm

imslp wrote:Also, feel free to drop the "For" prefix you have on the instrumentation categories, since it is not useful. Unless you have some other consideration. (I know I started it with the "Piece for Kazoo..." thing, but really "Piece for" does not belong in Instrumentation, but in Work Type.)


I imagined that the category walker would display an alphabetical list of category intersects, in which case using the "For" prefix would ensure that the instrumental categories would all appear together as a group. But I'll be able to judge this better once I've seen the category walker in action later. First I need to update the tagging guidance notes to include the modifications that are necessary, including converting the long, long list of work types to lower case characters :)

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby steltz » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:17 pm

imslp wrote:@Steltz: I'm not giving up trying to find a way to get arrangements in there, but at the moment they are not included in the genre system. What Davydov suggested is possible (and neat), but tricky to program and perhaps there is a better solution.

@All: Please do not worry about, or do, arrangement tagging.


It can wait, and I'm sure as people work with the new system, other ways around it will occur to someone.
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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Operalala » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:20 pm

"@Operalala — I can see from your questions that you still have misapprehensions that will only be dispelled once you see the system up and running."

Well, yes, I have misapprehensions that Vocalists' needs will be met in any way.
One thing we all learn in life is to take with a big grain of salt statements like "just wait till you see it", in place of addressing concerns. From everything I see, when "I see it" there will be no distinction between the major song types, except for those specific languages that happen to have a term on the list, Operettas will be mixed with Opera, which in turn will be lumped with Ballets, and I have yet to see explained anywhere how cross-category tags will fit into the category tree.


"1. Compromises are necessary for technical or other reasons"
Yes, this system, as we see it now, is quite gimped for Vocalists, and there aren't any technical or other reasons for this.
"2. Implementation cost outweighs utility"
If implementation lacks utility, we will find ourselves going back and re-doing things. Or even worse, leaving things very user-unfriendly.
"3. People simply can't agree philosophically, no matter how well informed"
Some things can actually be pretty clear, such as the fact that, in musical terms, Operas and Ballets are quite distinct.
"4. Prolongation of argumentation is detrimental to the morale of everyone involved (i.e. too much energy wasted on too little return)"
I don't think anyone needs to spell out their morale at seeing their well-founded concerns called "argumentation", or having their good judgement dismissed.

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby vinteuil » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:01 am

Please be patient, Operalala! Not all instrumentalists are predisposed against vocalists (and P.Davydov hasn't even advertised playing an instrument...).
Read over the tagging guide, perhaps?
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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby steltz » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:47 pm

With all due respect, I think you are being very unfair to Davydov -- I don't think he has had any tantrums, nor do his posts show any lack of maturity.

And if most musicians are coming to IMSLP to find specific pieces, then they will look under the composer surname. The other categories are for those of who browse (and yes, there are quite a few of us!).
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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby vinteuil » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:47 pm

[EDIT: Operalala, I personally, at least, have no place for rudeness...]
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Operalala
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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Operalala » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:39 pm

I am sorry, I have dealt with a world of rudeness on this, and I was serious about what I said - I do not trust Davydov's judgment or maturity in vocal matters. The first time around, he picked up his marbles and went home instead of creating more categories, this time he simply closed discussion instead of addressing them (ironically, when I had wanted to go through all the songs, I got this from him viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2980#p16017).

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby imslp » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:10 pm

@Operalala

You have forced me to address this issue one more time and it will also be the last time I hope to address this issue.

1. You have voiced your disagreements. Davydov has said that he will address it in the future. Davydov is the project leader, and his word is binding on the subject.
2. You have misinterpreted almost every point of what I said many posts above (the general/vocal works post). (a) I specifically said in #1 that multiple lineages is not what you want. Re-read my reply to #1. (b) I was specifically addressing the issue of imaginative naming. I am an offender myself in my compositional capacity. We don't want to argue about what is "imaginative" and what is "real" was my point. (c) Operas do have their own category.
3. The entire point of this system is that it is entirely changeable within a few seconds. There is no re-doing stuff as long as separate tags are kept for the work. The structure of the category tree is entirely changeable. If vocalists all agree that they were "gimped" by having Operettas below Operas, that can be changed in a matter of seconds.

I apologize for my direct language. I think these are important clarifications.

Also, this is a warning that what you are doing is dangerously close to trolling, which is prohibited on the forums. If a conversation goes clearly in a direction that you do not like, and you have already repeatedly voiced your opinion, any further attempts at ramming your opinions down other people's throats will be treated as trolling.

This is nothing personal. It is my job to make sure important conversations do not get irreversibly sidetracked by one or two people.

P.S. The difference between what Davydov did in the other thread and what you are doing in this thread is this: (a) there is actually a concensus in this thread, except for you alone, (b) Davydov didn't try to ram his opinion down someone else's throat, but only call a time out, and (c) you gave no time (only one day) for objections, whereas objections were allowed for several days in this thread, and the objections heard as well.

@Davydov:

I have a slight update on the tagging system tonight. It will enable "Hidden Lineages" (there is a hidden lineage for category C in this tree: Root->A->B->C, Root->D->B [hidden lineage is Root->D->B->C]). Hidden Lineages are used in tags (a Tag for category C will include D even though it is not a direct lineage), but not for the CategoryWalker so you have the power to format the layout for the CategoryWalker.

I would also encourage using multiple lineages. For example, you can move "Mandolin and Piano" under the "Mandolin" Specialist Instruments category. This way it will automatically include that if you use "Mandolin and Piano" in your tag. More importantly, the CategoryWalker will have "Mandolin and Piano" under the specialist instruments category, which may be useful to the user.

Of course, it is ultimately your decision and it depends on the situation (whether all pages in "Mandolin and Piano" should be in the specialist category). Just a heads up on a potentially useful feature.

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Davydov » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:33 pm

Hi Feldmahler. Thanks for that, and the hidden lineages feature should be very useful! For the moment it's probably best for me to carry on assigning temporary categories in the same way as before, just while there's so much going on, but changing this will be very simple later.

The immediate focus tonight is on getting the tags right, and our volunteers seem to be doing a great job so far. The majority of the new tags are likely to be created in these first few days, and then we can get to grips with the category walker and hidden lineages. So far, so good...

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby varnis » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:23 am

Can I request either permission to add categories and tags, or someone to add the tag "va orch", or am I simply jumping the gun :D

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Davydov » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:06 am

varnis wrote:Can I request either permission to add categories and tags, or someone to add the tag "va orch", or am I simply jumping the gun :D


In fact that tag's already been registered, as I've been following behind you :-) Don't worry about any "Unknown tag" messages for now, as these will all be taken care of within a few hours...

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby varnis » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:33 pm

Couple of things, first one is how do we tag "Meditations" in English or French forms, and second, Songs for orchestra, generally lieder, but occasionally chants or chansons as language dictates?

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby steltz » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:29 pm

It has occurred to me that, since we are cleaning up a few things as we find them, it is possible that we have to correct a genre, and then it might not get tagged at all if the tagging for that new genre has been finished already.

For example, Davydov has finished Sonata (1 instrument, no piano). If I find an unaccompanied sonata that has accidentally been put in sonatas with piano, I can change the genre, but it won't get tagged.

So I would like to suggest that if we find anything that needs a genre correction, we should tag it, most especially if the new genre is being tagged by someone else or is finished already (it doesn't matter if the new genre hasn't been started yet). If it is a genre that we are not that familiar with, at least bring it to the attention of the person who is doing that category.

[Edit] Just saw the new system where only the untagged ones are visible, so if a category is in progress, it will be picked up. But this still applies if someone has already finished the category.
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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Davydov » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:39 pm

@Steltz -- If you have a look here:

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=IMSLP: ... &section=2

... you'll find new links in the first column that will only display untagged works within each genre. That should stop any from being overlooked, and help spot any new ones that are uploaded while the tagging is going on.

I haven't actually been correcting the many mistakes in the "old" genres as I've gone along, because they won't be around much longer, but it's entirely up to you whether you want to carry on with that.

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Re: The End of "Genres"

Postby Davydov » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:46 pm

@Project Volunteers — We've encountered some vocal works where the "Instrumentation" field has only given the orchestral instruments, which has misled the person tagging that work into thinking that it was only orchestral. It's worth noticing if there's a librettist or language given, as that's a giveaway that there will be voices involved.

And don't forget the two-letter language codes for vocal works! :-)


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