Forum Rules

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NLewis
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Forum Rules

Post by NLewis »

It has recently occurred to me that even though the forum rules say not to use any language "we find obscene", I think it's ambiguous and unenforced. I've noticed a small influx of swear words on the public forums - even by members of our own administration, which contradicts the we part of the rule. I refuse to point fingers, so I won't mention the people who are to blame, but I think the issue should be addressed. In my opinion, there should be no wear words what-so-ever on the public forums as it can be found offensive to children, people of different ethnicity, and people of certain religions. If the moderation team agrees with me on this issue, I recommend that the rule be changed to explicitly prohibit the use of swear words and inappropriate language in any capacity.
pml
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by pml »

No shit.

Some people can utter what I regard as obscenities – truly repellant and disgusting ideas – without using anything as arcane as a swear word.

Opinions?
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NLewis
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by NLewis »

@PML - I guess you take this issue lightheartedly, and that's your right to do so. However, I'm a bit awestruck that you would blatantly swear to seemingly mock this topic. I agree that people can be obscene without using any swear words, but why does that mean that we should allow them? They are still offensive to some people, and I think using the colorful language you've expressed in your latest forum post might not look all together great for the administration team. If we are doing it, who's to stop anyone else? Do we really want this language floating around the forums?

I may be strongly disagreed with here, and I really hate to single you out right now Philip, but I think that being an administrator - let alone a bureaucrat - is about setting a good example on the site for other users to look up to and to follow. As a person in the highest administrative position, I don't believe a rule against swearing should need to be conspicuously listed in the rules for you to know better.
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by Philidor »

If someone was really potty-mouthed I'd pull them up about it. If they abused blacks, gays, Muslims, women, or the disabled (for example) - with or without the use of foul language - I'd ban them. But forums imo should reflect real life as far as possible, and in real life normal people swear a bit. I think it's healthy. The plays of William Shakespeare contain mountains of foul language, while Mozart's letters are obsessed with farting.

I'm also slightly suspicious of the idea that people can expect to go through life without being offended, that they have a right not to be offended, and that others, e.g. forum administrators, have a duty to protect them from being offended.
pml
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by pml »

Well, let me suggest that you will rarely find me using such provocative language: I recall a rather innocuous (to my mind) use of the very same word being edited elsewhere on the forums, which indirectly caused this current thread to be, so you can hardly be surprised at my decision to state my bald opinion on it, along with the spur to reinstate it!

I am perfectly happy to have personal attacks and things of that sort eradicated, deleted, and the perpetrators banned, as in the case of “amati1588” who was an abusive vulgarian. I am open to the possibility of there being certain species of robust or colourful language, if they are being employed in non-judgemental fashion, as being in the grey area where enforcement of forum policy to censor could be viewed as over-officious busybodiness.

Cheers, Philip
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daphnis
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by daphnis »

I tend to be moderate on this topic, along the lines of Phillidor and Philip. I am a member of several forums where expletives and any provocative language or anything that could be construed as that is forbidden, and while I can appreciate the precautionary measures taken not to offend anyone, I realize that swearing does have its place if used appropriately and, above all, sparingly. Like cooking with cloves, a little can go along way and one must know when and when not to use it. Since we don't regularly deal with issues requiring such serious response often, perhaps it would be better to amend the rule to simply read "Please use care and consideration with your language" or something along those lines. Offenders which are clearly out of line (the aforementioned "amati" and Quezada) must be dealt with swiftly, but I would be cautious about taking a no-tolerance policy regarding something that does have practical uses. I certainly don't condone foul-mouthed users on this forum or any others, so I want that known up front. I say let it ride until it becomes a larger problem. Just my ¢2 here...
NLewis
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by NLewis »

My opinion is that it's not worth hedging over yet. I think we all need to keep in mind that a forum without some controversy is a dead forum. It's bad enough that our forum is beginning to die lately as a result of loss of interest, but to censor things will only make it worse.
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by pml »

Beginning to die? Srsly?

:? Philip
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pjones235
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by pjones235 »

@PML - Its one thing to mock NLewis by swearing obnoxiously and ignorantly, but using abbreviations like "Srsly"??? I think that all swearing should be prohibited. Some of us just don't want to hear it. Thanks, NLewis, for this problem you've pointed out. I don't think only language "we find obscene" should be prohibited, but all unnecessary language.

-Philip Jones
NLewis
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by NLewis »

Thank you for agreeing with my initial position, pjones235 :-) But in reality, I was just playing devil's advocate. I don't really care too much. Maybe we can reach a compromise.
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by steltz »

@pjones: I took "srsly" to mean "seriously". What swear word did you think it was?
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by pjones235 »

@steltz - I didn't take it for a swear word. I called it an abbreviation.
@Nlewis - Some don't see it as a big deal, but I do have a problem with it and I really don't appreciate it. I don't want to sound stupid or anything and I don't want to be offensive towards people who do swear regularly. A compromise is necessary I think...

-Philip Jones
NLewis
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by NLewis »

I'm sure with the high stress level of IMSLP and daily musical life, everybody here curses on a regular basis ;)

How about this as a compromise:

[*]No F-bomb
[*]No ethnically insulting slurs. (unless you count "Viola player!" as a slur, and viola players as their own ethnicity (which is debatable) :)


Sound OK?
pml
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by pml »

Philip Jones,

I take extreme exception to my initial reply to Nick being categorised as “obnoxious and ignorant”. I can only presume your post was a very poor, failed attempt at sarcasm, so I won’t hold my breath for an apology. You may not like seeing such language, but as far as IMSLP is concerned it is almost a non-issue: we’re not 4chan here.

The post perfectly illustrated that swear words are highly contextual and it is especially the use of them as a denigratory slur — or other more polite words couched in a similarly aggressive context — that is of the highly objectionable sort which I think we would not want to see here. But Nick hasn’t provided any evidence that there is an ongoing problem — there have been very few cases of abusive posters on the forum, and his decision to edit another user’s post to remove a swear word in an amusing, non-offensive context was both prissy and high-handed.

Cheers, PML

PS Nick, what about sexist terminology? What about homophobic insults? What about ableist slurs? What about cis-gender privilege? Okay, it’s unlikely we’ll see topics on some of these issues. If you want the IMSLP forums to essentially be a safe space, why not simply put it as “no language that denigrates others”, or “no language that can be triggering for readers”. As for the F-bomb, I think there might be an argument to include the gender-specific swear words, since the more insulting ones are usually highly sexist.
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daphnis
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Re: Forum Rules

Post by daphnis »

Mr. Jones was clearly out of line and contorted what was a simple, playful reply into something much worse. This is not a "problem" now or in the past, and continuing to believe there is one makes me think we're wanting to arm for a war against windmills. The most sensible thing is to leave it out of forum rules until it clearly becomes a problem.
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