help instruments

[audunsj]

Couldn't anyone just check the original publication? It might happen to be mentioned there... It would be Vol. 25 of the Polnoe sobranie sochineniy. This particular volume is unfortunatly not available in my country

[Davydov]

Given its position in the score, could it be the Basset Clarinet?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basset_clarinet

[audunsj]

It might be, as well as it might be an alto bassoon, as well something completly different... For all we know it might be a strange russian instrument RK have just made up a name for. Take norway's national instrument for instance, called Hardingfele - in english Hardanger fiddle. This instrument has in some scores (Tviett's two concertoes) been given the name Violin/viola d'Hardanger. You won't find that term in any textbook on orchestration....

[aldona]

It might be, as well as it might be an alto bassoon, as well something completly different... For all we know it might be a strange russian instrument RK have just made up a name for. Take norway's national instrument for instance, called Hardingfele - in english Hardanger fiddle. This instrument has in some scores (Tviett's two concertoes) been given the name Violin/viola d'Hardanger. You won't find that term in any textbook on orchestration....

Is the Hardingfele anything like a nyckelharpa? or is that a completely different instrument?

Aldona

[steltz]

Forgot to look at the clef . . . . . corno basso, if it's a horn transposing at a 9th, will be in treble clef. So this is still a mystery.

Having made a cursory look at the bassoti parts, the range fits the fingered range of all clarinets -- in some cases a passage goes down to low E and then turns around again, low E being our lowest written note (band instruments usually don't have the extensions that you find on some orchestral instruments). And in one pattern where other instruments descend from a low F# to a D, the bassotto part has a rest on the D, which would be off the range of a clarinet.

So I think it's fairly safe to say these are clarinets. As to the keys, most wind bands have alto and bass clarinets. It seems Rimsky-Korsakov was writing for a group that used F basset horn rather than Eb alto, and it isn't too much of a stretch to assume that he used the word bassotti to mean any low clarinet. So the Bb bassotti would be bass clarinet.

I don't know if my university has a modern edition of this, if at all, but the next comparison would have to be to a modern score to see who has been given these parts. Master Music puts out an edition arranged by Clark McAllister, and his scoring does include alto and bass clarinet, although whether he gave those instruments the exact notes in the bassetti parts is something I don't know.

In the brass department, McAllister scores "4, 4+2, 3+1, 2"-- 4 horns, 4 trumpets, 2 cornets, "3+1" for trombones, and "2" for tubas. The IMSLP score does have 4 horns, 4 trumpets, 2 cornets, and 2 tubas, so the only thing left is the 3 trombones and the corno basso. Obviously "3+1" refers three trombones and something, I would guess euphonium?

A brass specialist would have to say whether the corno basso part could be played on a euphonium, although I'm still perplexed as to why a bass clef part is sitting between two treble parts. How would a bass trumpet fit this part?

( couldn't he have just written out the instruments in english

The problem is in the history and development of military bands. The English, American, Russian (and Turkish, for that matter) military bands all developed differently and used different instruments, sometimes including ophicleides, saxhorns, serpents, and all sorts of things not used today. Any modern performance has to move these parts to a modern instrument.

This score is entirely do-able with a modern band (with just the one proviso that someone needs to say what a good subsitute for the corno basso part is).

In fact, since most clarinettists can do Major 2nd transposition at sight, playing the basset clarinet part on an alto clarinet doesn't even require re-writing the part (and the part itself is relatively simple).

[audunsj]

It might be, as well as it might be an alto bassoon, as well something completly different... For all we know it might be a strange russian instrument RK have just made up a name for. Take norway's national instrument for instance, called Hardingfele - in english Hardanger fiddle. This instrument has in some scores (Tviett's two concertoes) been given the name Violin/viola d'Hardanger. You won't find that term in any textbook on orchestration....

Is the Hardingfele anything like a nyckelharpa? or is that a completely different instrument?

Aldona

No, it is not. The closest relative would be the viola da gamba, or any other stringed instrument with resonance strings. The hardangerfiddle is played as a normal violin, but it has 4 (5) resonance strings (most commonly tuned like the melody from "morning mood" by grieg). see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardanger_fiddle for more information.

Forgot to look at the clef . . . . . corno basso, if it's a horn transposing at a 9th, will be in treble clef. So this is still a mystery.

There are also Corni Bassi tuned in C....

I don't know if my university has a modern edition of this, if at all, but the next comparison would have to be to a modern score to see who has been given these parts. Master Music puts out an edition arranged by Clark McAllister, and his scoring does include alto and bass clarinet, although whether he gave those instruments the exact notes in the bassetti parts is something I don't know.

The edition is not that old. It's from the Vol 25 of the Polnoe Sobranie Sochineniy and was published in 1950. This is a critical edition, quite clearly close to an urtext (though this term was never applied by the soviets), and the terms and instrumental names would most likely be explained in either the preface or the commentary (a russian person would have even more problems with these terms than we I reckon). What McAllister has done is not very interesting within these matters; he's (probably) only adapted it to suit modern wind bands, both in balance (the size of the different instrument groups) and instrument (since so many instruments are now obsolete). There is a long tradition for this, F. Fennell would perhaps be it's most notorious contributor.

I will strongly recommend that someone checks the preface or commentary of the Vol. 25... If you need help in translating let me know.

BTW Euphonium = Tenor tuba, so its most certainly not that. You shouldn't use logic when dealing with wind band music from the romantic era, it does not apply and will only give you a headache

[aldona]

Re: Hardingfele vs Nyckelharpa...

No, it is not. The closest relative would be the viola da gamba, or any other stringed instrument with resonance strings. The hardangerfiddle is played as a normal violin, but it has 4 (5) resonance strings (most commonly tuned like the melody from "morning mood" by grieg). see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardanger_fiddle for more information.

My brother has acquired a nyckelharpa during his travels (he loves collecting weird instruments and it was not long after I got my alto flute...I think he felt the need to "out-weird" me.) I have seen him play it a few times and I remember that it too has resonance strings. My understanding is that it is tuned the same as a normal violin but it has keys and is held across the lap. The resonance strings give it a beautiful sound and I am currently trying to convince him to play Schubert's "Arpeggione" sonata on it with me accompanying.

I'll have to find out more about the Hardanger fiddle. It sounds very interesting. I have seen a few recordings around of Tveitt's works - I'll have to get hold of them and have a listen.

Aldona

[horndude77]

Another possibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_trumpet

Placement in the score would make sense. Though being written in bass clef would not. Perhaps there's such a thing as a bass cornet.

[audunsj]

I'll have to find out more about the Hardanger fiddle. It sounds very interesting. I have seen a few recordings around of Tveitt's works - I'll have to get hold of them and have a listen.

That I will recommend you to do He has two concertoes for Hardanger fiddle and orchestra (1955 & 65). The only complete recording so far of both concertoes is issued on BIS-CD-1206: http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1207 which should be available worldwide. However: 5 CD's with orchestral music and piano concertoes is also issued on Naxos and these are very good recordings!

[Doronk]

NEW DISCOVERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

first of all the corno basso is a bombardon which kind of looks like a cross between and sousaphone and a French horn
AND
upon research and downloading the score for rimsky korsakovs clarinet concert piece, which uses the same millitary band, the instrument is not bassotti but bassetti

still quite confused!!!!!!!

[steltz]

If the corno basso is a bombardon, then that still leaves the problem of what modern instrument to put this on in order to get a performance with modern wind band. Opinions from brass specialists, please???

Bassetti (referring to the plural), I still think, in this context would refer to any low clarinet, given that the range fits the fingered range of the clarinets, and the stave is situated between clarinets and bassoons, where the bass clarinet would reside.

If I were doing a performance of this, I would use alto and bass clarinet for the bassetto (the singular form) in F, and bass clarinet for the bassetto in Bb. The bass clarinettist can read the part as is, the alto clarinettist needs to read a whole-tone, or Major 2nd, up (if he can do this at sight), or it can be written out.

If you're the trombonist, Doronk, then good luck!!!

[Doronk]

thanks alot guys,
Just one more silly question -
exactly how many woodwinds would be appropriate for each section, ie clarinet 1,2,3 Eb clarinet, bassoons and bassetti( alto + bass clarinets)??

[Doronk]

and flute/piccollo and oboe??

[steltz]

Wind bands vary hugely in their overall size. The largest concert band (as opposed to marching band) I played in had 6 on each clarinet part, i.e. 18 in total, 1-2 Eb clarinets, 1-2 of each of the low clarinets, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 4 on each of the flute parts, 2 piccolos. However, some of the smaller universities do very nicely with half that.

[Doronk]

so the best instrument so use for corno basso would be a euphonium?

and the 2 basso?
what tuba's should be used?