Is there a more generic term that can be used? Art song and Lieder are very equal types of song, so one could also use "Lieder" to include all of the other types, which I think is mostly what is happening now. What is your reasoning for putting "Art song" above Lieder?
Actually, neither one belongs above, or inclusive of the other, and one of the advantages of Davydov's excellent list was that it went from generic to specific, which I think is a better plan.
One potential problem I see is that regular users who have followed both the wiki and the forums will know to look under Art Song for Lieder. First-time users, and probably a lot of regular users of the wiki who don't follow the forums, won't know to do this. Actually, one of the reasons why the genres need to be discussed and changed, is that the opposite of this happens now -- "Art songs" can't be searched as such. Fixing the problem by causing the reverse problem is probably not a good idea.
Let me throw out another idea, and if it re-starts the whole genre discussion then so be it -- probably not a bad idea to do that anyway.
If a "sub-genre" is created just below the "genre" entry, then Davydov's 9 meta-categories would go into the genre, in this case, "Vocal" (meaning works for one or more singers, where each performs a unique part). "Art song" or "Lieder" would go into the sub-genre. If uploaders are unsure what sub-genre the work is in, they can leave sub-genre blank (like "instrumentation" or "comments", it won't show unless filled in). If it is a hybrid (e.g. Lieder made out of Folk songs), sub-genre can be left blank, and this can be discussed under comments, or another user with more in depth knowledge can fill it in. Alternatively, in the case I just gave, it might be better to classify it as Lieder, and discuss its Folk song roots in the comments field. In this way, we have less angst over the cross-over items that straddle two types, but we still have a meta-category to put them in that is unarguable -- if a song is for one singer and piano, it has to be Vocal and not Choral or anything else.
Most importantly, we aren't creating a situation where users have to know the whole history of this discussion in order to look for Lieder under Art song or vice versa.
By the way, the search function does pick up things in the Misc. Comments field, so if a Lieder with folk song roots only has the "Folk song" element discussed under Misc. Comments, it would still come up under a "Folk song" search.
If someone feels this post should be moved back to "other" to re-start discussions, please do so.
Last edited by steltz
on Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.