Art Song category

[Operalala]

Hi all,
I'm working on the art songs - could we create an "Art Song" Category now, to cover Lieder, "Chansons" (i.e. Melodies) and other languages?
Thanks, Operalala

[perlnerd666]

You surely remember the problems we had before...

[Operalala]

With Art Songs?
We do need to get a workable categorization happening, but I don't have time for the whole thing. However, the songs are mess, which I can sort out as I go along right now, if we have workable categories in this area.

[Operalala]

Actually make that 2 categories for Classical-Modern secular solo vocal works:

1. Art Songs (including German Lieder, French art songs properly termed "Mélodies", Song Cycles, Italian Arias, English Art Songs, and all other languages. If a specific language is desired, they can be cross searched by language or composer: Art Songs x German, or Art Songs x Massenet.)
2. Popular and Traditional Songs (i.e folk songs, French "Chansons", cabaret, jazz, parlor pieces)

[Davydov]

You may remember that we couldn't come up with a consensus on what constitutes an "Art Song" (or "Popular Song" come to that), because people's interpretations differed widely.

I certainly think it would be unwise to add to the existing list of categories until a new IMSLP-wide system can be agreed upon. The discussions about this haven't ended -- they've just been suspended to allow more time for reflection...

[Operalala]

There, spelled out.
This will not "add to" the categories, as "Art Songs" should replace "Lieder", "Aria", and "song cycle", in addition to covering more ground.

[steltz]

Is there a more generic term that can be used? Art song and Lieder are very equal types of song, so one could also use "Lieder" to include all of the other types, which I think is mostly what is happening now. What is your reasoning for putting "Art song" above Lieder?

Actually, neither one belongs above, or inclusive of the other, and one of the advantages of Davydov's excellent list was that it went from generic to specific, which I think is a better plan.

One potential problem I see is that regular users who have followed both the wiki and the forums will know to look under Art Song for Lieder. First-time users, and probably a lot of regular users of the wiki who don't follow the forums, won't know to do this. Actually, one of the reasons why the genres need to be discussed and changed, is that the opposite of this happens now -- "Art songs" can't be searched as such. Fixing the problem by causing the reverse problem is probably not a good idea.

Let me throw out another idea, and if it re-starts the whole genre discussion then so be it -- probably not a bad idea to do that anyway.

If a "sub-genre" is created just below the "genre" entry, then Davydov's 9 meta-categories would go into the genre, in this case, "Vocal" (meaning works for one or more singers, where each performs a unique part). "Art song" or "Lieder" would go into the sub-genre. If uploaders are unsure what sub-genre the work is in, they can leave sub-genre blank (like "instrumentation" or "comments", it won't show unless filled in). If it is a hybrid (e.g. Lieder made out of Folk songs), sub-genre can be left blank, and this can be discussed under comments, or another user with more in depth knowledge can fill it in. Alternatively, in the case I just gave, it might be better to classify it as Lieder, and discuss its Folk song roots in the comments field. In this way, we have less angst over the cross-over items that straddle two types, but we still have a meta-category to put them in that is unarguable -- if a song is for one singer and piano, it has to be Vocal and not Choral or anything else.

Most importantly, we aren't creating a situation where users have to know the whole history of this discussion in order to look for Lieder under Art song or vice versa.

By the way, the search function does pick up things in the Misc. Comments field, so if a Lieder with folk song roots only has the "Folk song" element discussed under Misc. Comments, it would still come up under a "Folk song" search.

If someone feels this post should be moved back to "other" to re-start discussions, please do so.

[Operalala]

"Art Song" is as generic as you can get, really. It is the same as a Lied, but there are two reasons to use the English term here:
1. Terminology and Categories on the IMSLP are all in English generically.
2. Even though "Lied" is commonly used by musicians, we still get people uploading French songs looking for some French term, like "Chanson", and using it incorrectly.

Actually I want to replace all the piecemeal terms we have for these pieces - Lieder, Song Cycles, "Chanson" and Arias. I have no problem using "Lieder" for everything, however I think the English term would appear "more generic", if you will, because other categories are in English. And regular users actually have a bit of a headache with all the current piecemeal terminology.

Yes, I think a Category Tree of genres and subgenres would cover any confusion, so for instance, a rough outline of vocal music could go something like:

1. Vocal Works

a. Vocal Stage Works

i. Operas
ii. Operettas

b. Choral Works

i. Sacred Choral Works
iI. Secular Choral Works

c. Solo Vocal Works

i. Art Songs
ii. Popular and Traditional Songs
iii. Sacred Songs
iv. Vocal Instruction and Vocalises

But if you want to open the categorization discussion again, do keep in the "Feature Requests" section, as it is a rather key feature.

Operalala

[steltz]

I agree that Art Song is generic, but it also has a specific meaning too, and this system doesn't stop people searching for Lieder, which is an incredibly common term, even though it is German.

We need to be user friendly for those who aren't "forum adept." People will search for Lieder, so it needs to be there somewhere, imho.

[Lyle Neff]

I agree that Art Song is generic, but it also has a specific meaning too, and this system doesn't stop people searching for Lieder, which is an incredibly common term, even though it is German.

"Lied" automatically suggests German song, whether "art" or "folk."

What is the specific meaning of "art song"?

I can't imagine every average user of IMSLP trying to find any given art song by expecting to look first or only for "Lieder"; some people might not even know what a Lied is. (Frankly, someone who would try to search for a Russian ?????? as a "Lied" would be as ignorant as the average populace who refer to any piece of music -- even a purely instrumental work -- as a "song." )

[steltz]

I'm not saying it's the only thing they would search for but I am saying it is a common enough word that it would be one of the things they would search for, especially vocalists.

[Lyle Neff]

So, then, there is no specific meaning of "art song."

[Operalala]

If anyone who has any objections to these category changes could spell out what the actual problems might be, and suggest constructive improvements, please do so. Otherwise, I'm fixing these long-overdue categories starting tomorrow.
Operalala

[steltz]

Will you be deleting the word Lieder from those pages which currently use it?

[Davydov]

If anyone who has any objections to these category changes could spell out what the actual problems might be, and suggest constructive improvements, please do so. Otherwise, I'm fixing these long-overdue categories starting tomorrow.
Operalala

Hey, Operalala, it's completely unacceptable of you to try to set out an ultimatum like that - particularly as in another thread you just say that you want to get the ball rolling. The biggest problem is that you've just spelled out what you want to see without taking other peoples' points of view into account. By all means make your suggestions, but there has to be a proper consultation process for such an important change.