Second U-E cease and desist letter (new topic)

[TANTRIS]

Let me just add my thanks to the volumes of richly deserved praise that's already come in. I'm so grateful for the opportunity your extraordinary site has given in the six months since I discovered it. I've made some fantastic new composer discoveries that I would probably have never had known existed in any other way, and even built an entire piano recital program through browsing the ever-growing library on IMSLP. There's no way to overstate the value of this far-sighted and generous effort, but rest assured, it's made a lasting difference to countless music lovers, I for one will always thank IMSLP for introducing me to the marvelous world of Godowsky and Bortkiewicz, among many other composers I'd be all the poorer for being unaware of. Sad that the site is gone, but so very grateful that it existed.

Grateful thanks,

Richard Saunders

[dpajalic]

I think the easiest way to accommodate the request from UE is to remove authors listed in the letter, no more no less.
This will allow us to use this incredibly important site and deal with legal issues as they arise.
I think IMSLP has to have a small committee of people who deal with this in behalf of IMSLP.
I volunteer!

Dubravko Pajalic
Vancouver BC

[felixblumenfeld]

I am much saddened by Universal Edition's behaviour in this matter. IMSLP was a fantastic project that really answered a pressing need. I sincerely hope that it will be resurrected as soon as possible in one way or another.

[danikonpiano]

it seems that the no-brainer in this situation is to REMOVE ALL COMPOSERS born after 1860; these seem to be the ones UE (and other publishers... people, this is going to be like the Hydra if they manage to beat the UE cease and desist) is having problems with. That way NO countries' public domain laws even TOUCH the site... be on the safe side!! Update the composers list every year, of course. It seems like a small price to pay for the wealth of scores Feldmahler and his contributors have uncovered!!! --DK--

[WJM]

I think the easiest way to accommodate the request from UE is to remove authors listed in the letter, no more no less.

No work that is in the public domain under the law of the relevant country — Canada — should be removed.

Not one.

[Wiki03]

DEAR USERS, PLEASE TRANSLATE THIS TEXT! THX
Der angemessene und freundliche Brief von UE sollte zum konstruktiven Anlaß genommen werden, auf IMSLP technische Neuerungen einzuführen. Die unterschiedlichen Copyrightgestze können und dürfen nicht auf dem Rücken der Musikverlage ausgetragen werden. Dabei wäre es sehr einfach möglich, verschiedene Zugriffsrechte, entsprechend den Copyrightbestimmungen der Länder, auf die PDF-Dateien zu gewähren. Siehe dieses Beispiel: http://www.rhapsody.com/album/fahrmannwagner (Press play Button) Lediglich Usern aus den USA wird bei diesem Beispiel erlaubt, das Tonbeispiel anzuhören. Ebenso ist es auch möglich, entsprechende PDF-Dateien für Anwender aus der EU zu sperren. Die marktgerechte Etablierung und Standardisierung solcher Tools wäre übrigens nicht Aufgabe der Verlage, sondern Aufgabe derer Rechtsvertreter. Das sind die GEMA und deren Partnerorganisationen. "Jungs und Mädels in Berlin , Hamburg und München, tut was für Euer Geld. google und Softwarepartner freuen sich auf ein konkretes Angebot.":D Ich verstehe nicht, warum von dieser einfachen und sehr effektiven Möglichkeit noch kein Gebrauch gemacht wurde. (Selbst Proxy-Server werden entlarvt!) Noch ein Nachtrag: UE zählt unbestreitbar zu den anerkanntermaßen sehr ambitionierten Verlagen, der alle seine Komponisten gut und mehr als angemessen pflegt und betreut. Das sollten einfach alle honorieren - Punkt. Wer darüber, gerade in den USA und Canda, anderer Meinung ist stösst zumindest bei mir auf Granit. Es gibt in Europa inzwischen viel zu wenig Musikverlage. Wie wird das sonst eines Tages enden? Noch zwei oder drei Riesen, die alle Nischen des Maktes gar nicht bedienen können?! Da gibt es reihenweise andere deutsche und französische Musikverlage, die mit der grossen kulturellen Verantwortung, die sie tragen, in höchstem Masse verantwortungslos umgehen. Sie hüllen sich wohlweisslich in Schweigen; von der unrechtmäßigen Übertragung ehemaliger jüdischer Verlage an "arische" Verlage gar nicht zu reden. Da ist noch sehr viel aufzuarbeiten. Ebenso die amerikanischen Raubdruckverlage, ich darf diese so nennen, ist IMSLP natürlich nicht willkommen. Aber sie wissen: Wir haben Jahrzehnte gesündigt, nun kommt die gerechte Strafe (frei nach Pslam 94) Meint Wiki03

[Stevie_D]

hi there, my name is Steven. Currently i'm working on a project to record the complete piano works of XAVER SCHARWENKA. As a result (because i couldn't find any published copies of his music) i used IMSLP as a main (only) source of his music. Now because of closing IMSLP i have to abort this project . I don't know why they had to remove xaver scharwenka's music, because he died in 1925 so its perfectly legal to download his music in europe. Can someone help me with recovering his music?? Or atleast tell me which website sells his music??

Steve

P.S hope someone resurrect IMSLP soon!!!

[kongming819]

DEAR USERS, PLEASE TRANSLATE THIS TEXT! THX
Der angemessene und freundliche Brief von UE sollte zum konstruktiven Anlaß genommen werden, auf IMSLP technische Neuerungen einzuführen. Die unterschiedlichen Copyrightgestze können und dürfen nicht auf dem Rücken der Musikverlage ausgetragen werden. Dabei wäre es sehr einfach möglich, verschiedene Zugriffsrechte, entsprechend den Copyrightbestimmungen der Länder, auf die PDF-Dateien zu gewähren. Siehe dieses Beispiel: http://www.rhapsody.com/album/fahrmannwagner (Press play Button) Lediglich Usern aus den USA wird bei diesem Beispiel erlaubt, das Tonbeispiel anzuhören. Ebenso ist es auch möglich, entsprechende PDF-Dateien für Anwender aus der EU zu sperren. Die marktgerechte Etablierung und Standardisierung solcher Tools wäre übrigens nicht Aufgabe der Verlage, sondern Aufgabe derer Rechtsvertreter. Das sind die GEMA und deren Partnerorganisationen. "Jungs und Mädels in Berlin , Hamburg und München, tut was für Euer Geld. google und Softwarepartner freuen sich auf ein konkretes Angebot.":D Ich verstehe nicht, warum von dieser einfachen und sehr effektiven Möglichkeit noch kein Gebrauch gemacht wurde. (Selbst Proxy-Server werden entlarvt!) Noch ein Nachtrag: UE zählt unbestreitbar zu den anerkanntermaßen sehr ambitionierten Verlagen, der alle seine Komponisten gut und mehr als angemessen pflegt und betreut. Das sollten einfach alle honorieren - Punkt. Wer darüber, gerade in den USA und Canda, anderer Meinung ist stösst zumindest bei mir auf Granit. Es gibt in Europa inzwischen viel zu wenig Musikverlage. Wie wird das sonst eines Tages enden? Noch zwei oder drei Riesen, die alle Nischen des Maktes gar nicht bedienen können?! Da gibt es reihenweise andere deutsche und französische Musikverlage, die mit der grossen kulturellen Verantwortung, die sie tragen, in höchstem Masse verantwortungslos umgehen. Sie hüllen sich wohlweisslich in Schweigen; von der unrechtmäßigen Übertragung ehemaliger jüdischer Verlage an "arische" Verlage gar nicht zu reden. Da ist noch sehr viel aufzuarbeiten. Ebenso die amerikanischen Raubdruckverlage, ich darf diese so nennen, ist IMSLP natürlich nicht willkommen. Aber sie wissen: Wir haben Jahrzehnte gesündigt, nun kommt die gerechte Strafe (frei nach Pslam 94) Meint Wiki03

The appropriate and friendly letter of UE should be taken to the constructional cause to introduce on IMSLP technical innovations. The different Copyrightgestze can be allowed and not on the back of the music publishing houses to be delivered. It would be very simply possible, different rights of access, according to the copyright regulations of the countries to grant to the pdf files. See this example: http://www.rhapsody.com/album/fahrmannwagner (press play Button) Usern from the USA is only permitted with this example to listen to the clay/tone example. Likewise it is also possible to close appropriate pdf files for users from the European Union. The establishment and standardisation corresponding to real market conditions of such Tools would be by the way not task of the publishing houses, but task of those legal representatives. Those are the GEMA and their partner organizations. “Young and to girls in Berlin, Hamburg and Munich, does which for your money. google and software partners look forward to a concrete offer. “Very Happy I does not understand, why by this simple and very effective possibility still no use was made. (Even proxy servers are exposed!) Still another supplement: UE ranks incontestablly among the admittedly very much ambitionierten publishing houses, which maintains and cares for all than appropriately its composers well and more. Simply all should honor that - point. Who over it, straight is in the USA and Canda, other opinion pushes at least with me on granite. There are few music publishing houses in Europe in the meantime much too. How otherwise a daily will end? Still two or three giants, the all niches of the Maktes at all to serve can?! There there are by the dozen different German and French music publishing houses, which deal with the large cultural responsibility, which they carry, extremely irresponsibly. They wrap themselves probably-whitish in silence; not to talk about the illegitimate transmission of former Jewish publishing houses to “arische” publishing houses at all. There still very much is to be regenerated. Likewise this may call the American pirated edition publishing houses, I in such a way, is IMSLP naturally not welcomely. But they know: We have decades gesündigt, now come the fair punishment (free after Psalm 94) mean Wiki03
(From WorldLingo)

[danikonpiano]

I think the easiest way to accommodate the request from UE is to remove authors listed in the letter, no more no less.

No work that is in the public domain under the law of the relevant country — Canada — should be removed.

Not one.

...except that it IS called the INTERNATIONAL music score library project... therefore copyright laws of all countries should be observed.

[WJM]

...except that it IS called the INTERNATIONAL music score library project... therefore copyright laws of all countries should be observed.

No.

And in any event, how do you do that when "all countries" have contradictory copyright laws? There are countries which have "domaine public payant", and those which do not. You cannot simultaneously observe the laws of a "domaine public payant" country, and a non-DPP country. You cannot simultaneously observe the laws of the United States and Canada with respect to a pre-1923 work by an author who died in 1960.

Just as with the various Projects Gutenberg, music projects of this sort should make their activities — by being organized in and hosted in one single country — subject to the laws of that country.

To say that you have to observe the copyright laws of all countries, means you have to observe the copyright law of the strictest country, which means that the whole world must now run on Mexican copyright law.

No thanks.

[PI]

...except that it IS called the INTERNATIONAL music score library project... therefore copyright laws of all countries should be observed.

That's exactly the point I'm hammering here, but some people just can't get off the "but the server is in Canada" horse. The server is your warehouse that's where things get shipped FROM. Unless Canada is under an embargo in the destination country this is OK. Now where're the goods going? Is the product you are shipping legal in the country you are shipping it to?

[WJM]

That's exactly the point I'm hammering here, but some people just can't get off the "but the server is in Canada" horse.

That is the only relevant "horse".

The server is your warehouse that's where things get shipped FROM. Unless Canada is under an embargo in the destination country this is OK. Now where're the goods going? Is the product you are shipping legal in the country you are shipping it to?

If they aren't, then that is for something for the receiving country to enforce.

[PI]

And in any event, how do you do that when "all countries" have contradictory copyright laws?

In any case there's only the law of one country: the country where you distribute the music. That is, the country where the end user is sitting. Mexico will not prevent you from distributing Bartók in Canada. But you can't do that in Mexico or in Austria. You can choose not to offer the service there at all, or abide the local laws.

[PI]

To say that you have to observe the copyright laws of all countries, means you have to observe the copyright law of the strictest country, which means that the whole world must now run on Mexican copyright law.

Noone will enforce Mexican copyright law for works distributed in Austria. But Austrian laws do apply there.

[samcinty]

In any case there's only the law of one country: the country where you distribute the music. That is, the country where the end user is sitting.

It's not that cut and dried. If you look at it another way, IMSLP's servers only sends and receives information with its ISP, which is obviously in Canada. If IMSLP's servers only communicate with other Canadian servers, then why would they need to worry about copyright law in other countries. It *only* copies information between itself and other servers in Canada.

The user who browses to IMSLP via their ISP only sends and receives information with their ISP, in their country, let's say Austria. The copy of the data that the end user receives is being made from their Austrian ISP's router to their computer. Why not sue the ISP in Austria that has made this copyrighted material available to the end user and actually delivered it to them?