Welcoming Publishers to IMSLP

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homerdundas
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Welcoming Publishers to IMSLP

Postby homerdundas » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:05 am

Though it doesn't solve the current situation, a new feature may make the existence of IMSLP more palatable to music publishers and others with commercial interests. This is to include links to publishers and other vendors on the web site. No, I don't mean advertisements. I'll be more specific.

Presently each work has a main page, with basic information and download link. Behind this are tabs for 'discussion' and 'history'. I propose we insert a second page named 'links' or 'other editions' (does someone have a nicer name?). This page - also in wiki format - would be available for people - especially publishers, reprinters, vendors etc. to add links to their wares. These links would be directly applicable to the work displayed on the main page. This page could include links to newer editions, miniature scores, arrangements, DVD compendia, MIDI files, even recordings - public domain or otherwise.

One requirement for such links might be to allow a maximum of two lines of description per item. Another might be to require the link to point directly to the equivalent published work, not just to a web site main page (after all, we can all do a Google search if we want to!) All in all this would be very much like the 'External Links' category on Wikipedia pages, however we would keep it on its own page as described above.

Though I have described this feature as a vehicle for commercial participation, it would be useful for everyone. Most of us purchase and make use of originally published editions of scores and parts. This is not necessarily because this is all that's available. It is always more useful to have a nicely bound score than a stack of loose paper. In that regard, I would guess that the total cost of printing the score of a symphony on an ink jet printer would exceed that of purchasing a miniature score.

Homer.

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:29 pm

That is quite the opposite of what IMSLP is going for. Whether or not you intend it as advertising: it is. And neither wiki or CPDL nor IMSLP want that.

Wikipedia's external links section is quite moderated to avoid such things. The only exception would be Bibliography, or if the site that contains information to purchase also contains extensive information about the piece.

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Postby lcrighton » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:14 pm

I would love to see links to things like facsimile reprints, critical editions and recordings - even if some could see it as advertising, it would be useful additional resources to anyone interested in studying the music.

(I started out singing in a church choir, which I still do, and wanted to learn more about the music that we performed, so now I'm studying musicology.)
Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti
So far tranquillo ogni turbato core,
Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore
Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti.

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Postby Carolus » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:49 pm

Technically, IMSLP did provide hosting to a couple of small publishers. Poon Hill Press, the small company owned by Mr. Severo Ornstein, the son of composer Leo Ornstein, actually encouraged the upload of all his father's available scores onto IMSLP. He looks at it from a very different perspective than the bankers and lawyers who run the estates of Bartok, Strauss and the other composers UE was comapining about. Namely, he wishes to encourage the diseemenation and performance of Leo Ornstein's work.

The promotional method was also in operation for the estate of American composer Tui St. George Tucker, whose manuscripts were posted at IMSLP. Under the legal definition of "publication" in the US (and probably other nations as well), IMSLP was in fact "publishing" the works on its site - even though there was no commercial aspect. That's why we employed the different Creative Commons Licenses for Ornstein, Tucker and all the self-published composers who uploaded works here.

In an earlier reply to Mr. Irons, I even suggested that UE should upload scores of works for composers that were new or not well-known and provide links to sound files and to UE's site where visitors from IMSLP could purchase printed copies or rent performance material. IMSLP is for freedom of access - and that even includes the freedom of access for publishers like UE to make selected copyrght items avaialble to visitors here for the purpose of promoting performances. I have no problem with IMSLP having links - not ads - to multiple sites where a printed copy of a score - even a copyright one - can be purchased. IMSLP could even serve as a neutral forum where comparison of prices, print and edition quality could be made, along with reviews of different scores. Mutopia has gone even further and has set up a system for actually purchasing printed copies of items on its site via Lulu.com.

Homer above makes a very fine point about the actual cost involved in printing and binding a score oneself. This is especially true for opera scores with hundreds of pages. As I stated on a pre-shutdown thread, the largest reprint publisher in the world, Kalmus, was not upset or concerned about IMSLP in the least. They are well aware that it is ultimately cheaper and significantly more convenient to purchase a nicely printed and bound score on decent paper than to print out one with an inkjet printer one-sided onto thin letter paper and bind all the loose sheets.

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Postby Vivaldi » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:48 am

Hi ArticWind7 and Carolus,
Perhaps Homer was suggesting somewhere along the lines of banners that must be related to printed music or links to other public domain score sites such as the Choral Public Domain Library? I guess this model would be similar to the one SheetMusicPlus.com employed, where there are banners and links to other music publishers as well. Advertising? Maybe, which is what IMSLP intends to avoid, as ArticWind7 mentioned. However, I do think this is nice idea, even though it would seem to run against the very principles of IMSLP.

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Postby emeraldimp » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:46 pm

I guess I'll chime in here...

I have no particular objection to advertising along the lines of Google ads - provided they're used to support the site. Image ads tend to be ugly and, if they're served from elsewhere, you can never be quite sure what you'll get.

I have no objection to publishers providing links to pieces that can be purchased, along the lines of Carolus' suggestion, provided that at least the score of that edition is available on the site. (Seems like a good idea in general anyway, provided the scores are good quality - purchasers can review the score and ensure that it has the instrumentation they want/need, that it's the correct edition, etc.)

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Postby imslp » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:53 pm

I am currently in the process of planning an official extension to IMSLP, implemented in the work page template, which will lead to a list of URLs where the said work can be bought. I think this will benefit both IMSLP users and publishers: IMSLP users won't have to look around hard to find places that sell the score, and publishers will get another venue of publicity. This will purely be a courtesy extended by IMSLP towards publishers; there will be no income for the IMSLP in this regard. If the publishers want to support IMSLP, I would welcome them to do it through official channels (the donations section after I actually set it up...).

Speaking of implementations... I really have too much planned with too little time lol ;) I'd really like to get the LoC cataloging system going, but that'd have to wait until after several other projects :/

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Postby Carolus » Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:06 pm

Part of the problem with looking through the online sites dealing in printed music (Sheet Music Plus, for example) is that the precise information as what, exactly, was reprinted by Kalmus/Alfred for their score of say Mozart's Requiem, K. 626 is often simply not avalable. SMP leaves it up to each publisher what information to include.

Also, the reviews on SMP all too often consist of: 'This is such a wonderful piece, I really enjoyed playing it' instead of being useful commentary on the specific item at hand.

Just for fun, I did the following searches for Debussy's Petite Suite at various places.

SMP:http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_results_adv.html?formName=advSearch&lc=advSearch:title&invAll=petite%20suite&otherAll=debussy&previousWords=&max=50&sortBy=Bestselling

Amazon:http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=debussy&field-title=petite+suite&field-isbn=&field-publisher=&node=&url=&field-binding=&field-age=&field-language=&field-dateop=&field-dateyear=&sort=salesrank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=39&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=11

AddAll (used books):http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?inAuthor=debussy&exAuthor=&inTitle=petite+suite&exTitle=children%27s+corner&inDesc=&exDesc=&id=071110221151369383&order=TITLE&ordering=ASC&dispCurr=USD&match=Y

Masters Music:http://www.masters-music.com/action.lasso?-db=mastexp&-layout=web&-response=itemlist.lasso&compdisp=debussy&titledisp=petite%20suite&-sortfield=titlesort&-maxrecords=100&-search

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Postby pml » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:18 am

Hi all,

as I may have said elsewhere - it is fairly standard practice for
encyclopædic works (like Grove or MGG) to list a composer's principal
publishers as an aid to research, and I see no reason why IMSLP, being a
website, can't improve on this by actually providing links to the publisher's
websites, particularly for composers whose works aren't yet PD
everywhere.

It's not just a courtesy to the publishers concerned, it's a service to users
of the website, and I see little possibility of confusing visitors to IMSLP who
find a composer page which says "this composer's work is under copyright,
please see such-and-such publishers for such-and-such works". Moreover,
it tacitly makes a lie of the claim that every download from IMSLP
represents a lost sale of sheet music, for if music lovers or performers
don't have either the desire or resources to print themselves a copy
from the ubiquitous PDF, then what else are they likely to do except buy
the printed copy?

Best regards, Philip
--
PML (talk)

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Postby Yagan Kiely » Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:09 am

Hi ArticWind7 and Carolus,
Perhaps Homer was suggesting somewhere along the lines of banners that must be related to printed music or links to other public domain score sites such as the Choral Public Domain Library? I guess this model would be similar to the one SheetMusicPlus.com employed, where there are banners and links to other music publishers as well. Advertising? Maybe, which is what IMSLP intends to avoid, as ArticWind7 mentioned. However, I do think this is nice idea, even though it would seem to run against the very principles of IMSLP.
I would like to post me sincere opposition to banners. They are and eyesore and destroy the website's image and appearance.

Although I don't particularly like the idea in the first post (And of feldmahler) it is far more amicable.

I prefer a website with ideas on advertising being not much dissimilar to wikipedia.


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